Taylor, Moss Miss Redskins Workouts

Daseal:

Assuming that I had done some real background checking on the players in the draft last year so that I had a good understanding of what kind of person and player I was drafting at #5, I probably would have taken Kellen Winslow Jr. - - even though I don't think that TE was nearly as important a need for the Skins with a high draft pick. I just think that Taylor is a guy who will never live up to the expectations people have for him based on his physical skills.

With 20/20 hindsight of course, I could pretend now to have been on the Ben Roethlisberger train from the beginning. But I wasn't. I thought Roethlisberger would take several years to turn into anyting useful in the NFL. He was really good right out of the gate - - and he and his team won a boatload of games.

There is probably only one GM in the NFL who would not trade Ed Reed for Sean Taylor even up and that is the one in Baltimore who already has Ed Reed.

I'll go even further; I would not trade Brian Dawkins for Sean Taylor even up if I were the Eagles GM. I guarantee that I would not trade Troy Polamalu (sp?) even up for Taylor now. No way the Cowboys trade Roy Williams for Taylor even up. And the only reason I would not trade Rodney Harrison for Taylor even up now as the GM for the Pats is that Taylor is so much younger than Harrison.

And just how is Taylor going to become an integral part of this defense if he is "working out" 1500 miles away from his teammates on the DL and at LB and in the DB? Is that the new defense that Gregg Williams is creating to be sure that no one can get behind Taylor late in the game? Lining him up 1500 miles from the line of scrimmage? BRILLIANT!!! - - as they say in the Guiness commercials...

If you're going to go with the argument that Sean Taylor lost the game by being on the team, then this is what I say:

I'm going to repeat this one more time.

Had Sean Taylor not been on the team, the fumble that prevented the Cowboys from scoring ANOTHER touchdown would have not happened. Would someone else have blown the coverage? That's debatable.

The fact is, it is unfair to blame one player for a loss. Even in our fantasy land that is most of our minds, a team wins the game and a team loses the game. Regardless of how many points are scored and how many points are given up it is a team effort.

I also happen to be the person who needs the guide dog because I feel that you aren't one of the top 3 defensive rookies in the league by making "hightlight" reel hits.

As far as him being a meathead, there is no doubt. I use that term in a different sense meaning that he just doesn't seem like the most intelligent guy in the world.

Football is his sport and that's where his knowledge is.

I don't go knocking my garbageman because he's not a rocket scientist, so I'm not going to knock Taylor for not "seeming" to be intelligent.

If people were to survive on physical skills alone, then Brock Lesnar would have made it far in the NFL. Hell, every person on "World's Strongest Man" would be able to play.

Taylor did not cost the team games. He was a very important cog in a methodical machine of a defense.

Would I rather him be here than not? You're damn right.

Daseal:

Assuming that I had done some real background checking on the play

I'll go even further; I would not trade Brian Dawkins for Sean Taylor even up if I were the Eagles GM. I guarantee that I would not trade Troy Polamalu (sp?) even up for Taylor now. No way the Cowboys trade Roy Williams for Taylor even up. And the only reason I would not trade Rodney Harrison for Taylor even up now as the GM for the Pats is that Taylor is so much younger than Harrison.

Common; all those guys have been in the league for years, you cant compare them to one another. Would you trade Rothlesberger (arguably the best player to come out of last years draft) for Brady, Manning, McNabb, Cullpepper... proaboably not. You cant compare Taylor to all those guys because they have had time to develop. Taylor may never be as good as any of the safteys you mentioned, but the reason no one would make that trade is because Taylor has only been in the leauge one year and has so much to prove.

Just like you are saying Taylor is a meathead and always will be a meathed; is just as stupid as the people who are already putting him in the HOF. The kid was a freaking rookie last year; you cant pass judgments on how a player is going to be overall after their ROOKIE season. Hell, I would go as far to say you have to wait until at least their third season to really pass judgment. Did he make good plays last year, yes. Did he make stupid plays last year, yes. You cant point to one good or bad play and tell how a player is as a whole.

Gmanc711:

Someone else here said they would not trade Reed for Taylor even up. I didn't say that. But since someone else bright it up, I thought I'd offer a different perspective on that idea. I agree that you can't compare Taylor to those other guys because they are the elite safties in the league now and Taylor is not. He might become one of them one of these days; but as of now he's not in their league.

Would I trade Roethlisberger for McNabb or Brady or Manning? Of course not. I never said that was even a remote possibliity. But if someone thinks it's a bad idea to trade Taylor for Reed even-up, they might also think one of those Roethlisberger trades is a good idea. I don't.

I agree that people CAN mature and grow up. The problem is that MOST people show signs of being in the process of doing that by the time they are 21 years old. Yes, there are some late-bloomers; I admit that. And you might want to think that just maybe there are some people who never reach a maturity level beyond a college-freshman who is rushing a frat on campus.

So tell me, what behavior has Sean Taylor exhibited since he was drafted by the Washington Redskins that leads you to believe that he is maturing and developing into a thoughtful and full human adult? Use Darrell Green as your example here. What has Taylor DONE to lead you to believe that sometime in the next 5 years he will evolve into someone who can play as well as Darrell Green on the field AND be as mature and solid a citizen as Darrell Green off the field. I can't wait to read your list of maturity indicators here.


Malcom:

If it isn't appropriate to blame someone for losing a game, then it is also never appropriate to credit an individual with a win. When Adam Viniteiri kicked field goals with virtually no time left to win Super Bowls, he did not win the game all by himself. But given the opportunity to win the game as opposed to losing it, he did something to make the Pats win the game.

John Elway is revered for his comebacks in the final two minutes of games. Remember "The Drive"? Did he do it himself? No. Could he have avoided the necessity to do it at all if he had scored more in the first 59 minutes of the game? Of course. But when it mattered, John Elway found a way to win games for his team instead of having them lose those same games.

There are hundreds of other examples I could use here, but I think you have the idea by now...

Now analyze what Sean Taylor did in Dallas II last year in this light. He had the chance to do something to assure a win; instead of doing what his assignment was, he got beat deep; that cost the Skins a win. When it came down to the end of the game and when it was make a play or go home with your head up your butt, his performance sent the Skins home with their heads up their butts.

Sure, it would never have come to that if Ramsey had thrown 9 TD passes and Portis had run for 400 yards and 5 rushing TDs earlier that day; but they didn't. Notwithstanding all those shortcomings by the offensive players that day, the Redskins were ahead with less than one minute to play and then - - what happened? Who "made the play" and who "took gas"?


For reasons that seem not to be important to the Sean Taylor Fan Club here, Joe Gibbs has made it clear that he really wants 100% participation in all the voluntary workouts this off-season. I guess that Joe Gibbs is doing that just to make himself a pain in the ass to the players because obviously it can't be all that important to ask these players to show up and work out in order to earn their salaries. He's doing that to annoy them, right?

So, with almost all of the physcially able players participating, the ones not participating stand out like a sore thumb. And can anyone here REALLY and TRULY be surprised that Sean Taylor is one of the no-shows? I have to admit that I am surprised that Santana Moss is also a no-show, but if I had to pick one starter from last year's team who would be absent, it would definitely have been Taylor - - from the time he ducked out of the NFL Rookie Seminar. I'm disappointed that he's not there but not the least bit surprised.

So tell me, what behavior has Sean Taylor exhibited since he was drafted by the Washington Redskins that leads you to believe that he is maturing and developing into a thoughtful and full human adult? Use Darrell Green as your example here. What has Taylor DONE to lead you to believe that sometime in the next 5 years he will evolve into someone who can play as well as Darrell Green on the field AND be as mature and solid a citizen as Darrell Green off the field. I can't wait to read your list of maturity indicators here.


You cant pass judgment on this guy, you dont even know him. For all I know, you could be 100% right. Maybe you know Sean Taylor on a bigger level than I do, but I have no clue how you can call him an immature kid who is not a thoughtful human adult; through what you read in the paper or on websites. I just dont get it. I cant put together a list of things for about Sean Taylors charecter, I do not know him. If you do know him on some sort of level, then I will take your word for it. The only thing you can say about him that says he is immature is that he got pulled over on a DUI Charge, which he was cleared of (I'm a realist, I know the rules are different for athletes). I read the other day that Sean Taylor donated a good chunk of money to his former school, maybe that makes him a model citezen. You're passing judgments about his personatlity; and I just dont know how you have come to all these conclusions.

SC, points well taken about Taylor, but at least admit his strip of Jones earlier in the game SAVED us a TD, and put the Skins in a position to potentially hold on for the win. Jones had a wide open lane to the endzone until Taylor stuck his hand in and pulled the ball loose.

Did he blow the coverage? Yeah he did, but I don't think Taylor should take 100% of the blame. It was a well executed play, and they went after an aggressive rookie safety. Hats off the Cowboys in my opinion.

you all them...that get them here....LOL

Gmanc711:

Someone else here said they would not trade Reed for Taylor even up. I didn't say that. But since someone else bright it up, I thought I'd offer a different perspective on that idea. I agree that you can't compare Taylor to those other guys because they are the elite safties in the league now and Taylor is not. He might become one of them one of these days; but as of now he's not in their league.

Would I trade Roethlisberger for McNabb or Brady or Manning? Of course not. I never said that was even a remote possibliity. But if someone thinks it's a bad idea to trade Taylor for Reed even-up, they might also think one of those Roethlisberger trades is a good idea. I don't.

I agree that people CAN mature and grow up. The problem is that MOST people show signs of being in the process of doing that by the time they are 21 years old. Yes, there are some late-bloomers; I admit that. And you might want to think that just maybe there are some people who never reach a maturity level beyond a college-freshman who is rushing a frat on campus.

So tell me, what behavior has Sean Taylor exhibited since he was drafted by the Washington Redskins that leads you to believe that he is maturing and developing into a thoughtful and full human adult? Use Darrell Green as your example here. What has Taylor DONE to lead you to believe that sometime in the next 5 years he will evolve into someone who can play as well as Darrell Green on the field AND be as mature and solid a citizen as Darrell Green off the field. I can't wait to read your list of maturity indicators here.


Malcom:

If it isn't appropriate to blame someone for losing a game, then it is also never appropriate to credit an individual with a win. When Adam Viniteiri kicked field goals with virtually no time left to win Super Bowls, he did not win the game all by himself. But given the opportunity to win the game as opposed to losing it, he did something to make the Pats win the game.

John Elway is revered for his comebacks in the final two minutes of games. Remember "The Drive"? Did he do it himself? No. Could he have avoided the necessity to do it at all if he had scored more in the first 59 minutes of the game? Of course. But when it mattered, John Elway found a way to win games for his team instead of having them lose those same games.

There are hundreds of other examples I could use here, but I think you have the idea by now...

Now analyze what Sean Taylor did in Dallas II last year in this light. He had the chance to do something to assure a win; instead of doing what his assignment was, he got beat deep; that cost the Skins a win. When it came down to the end of the game and when it was make a play or go home with your head up your butt, his performance sent the Skins home with their heads up their butts.

Sure, it would never have come to that if Ramsey had thrown 9 TD passes and Portis had run for 400 yards and 5 rushing TDs earlier that day; but they didn't. Notwithstanding all those shortcomings by the offensive players that day, the Redskins were ahead with less than one minute to play and then - - what happened? Who "made the play" and who "took gas"?


For reasons that seem not to be important to the Sean Taylor Fan Club here, Joe Gibbs has made it clear that he really wants 100% participation in all the voluntary workouts this off-season. I guess that Joe Gibbs is doing that just to make himself a pain in the ass to the players because obviously it can't be all that important to ask these players to show up and work out in order to earn their salaries. He's doing that to annoy them, right?

So, with almost all of the physcially able players participating, the ones not participating stand out like a sore thumb. And can anyone here REALLY and TRULY be surprised that Sean Taylor is one of the no-shows? I have to admit that I am surprised that Santana Moss is also a no-show, but if I had to pick one starter from last year's team who would be absent, it would definitely have been Taylor - - from the time he ducked out of the NFL Rookie Seminar. I'm disappointed that he's not there but not the least bit surprised.

Let me just say that I don't agree with SC's assessment of Sean Taylor. I think he's quick to cast him aside and I wish he showed the patience with Taylor that he complains the Redskins' FO doesn't show with the franchise as a whole.

And usually I don't agree with Curmudgeon and his "keeping it real" views. That being said though, what he wrote is the way you're supposed to write a dissenting view. Most everyone here knows that but there are those of you.. :Smoker:...who don't get it.

"All you idiot assclowns on this site can keep boning your Sean Taylor bobblehead" is not an example of a good retort that's going to earn you any respect on this site.

Sorry, I know it's off-topic but I figured it was a good time to express it. Hopefully those of you it applies to... :Smoker:...are reading this thread and understand.

Gmanc711:

I am NOT passing judgment on Sean Taylor. I am telling you what my opinion of him is based on HIS behaviors.

He skipped out of the Rookie Seminar. That's not in doubt. He said it was because he was going to be evicted from his apartment. Assume that's true for just a moment; a mature adult would have known that eviction procedures were underway before getting on the plane to go to the rookei seminar and a mature adult would have done something about that. A mature adult - about to sign a contract worth millions of dollars - might have had the foresight to figure a way to forestall the eviction or avoid it entirely. After the fact, Taylor said that he and his roomates/cohorts owed a couple of thousand dollars in the deal. I don't know about you, but if I am about to come into something like $5-10M in cash money, I think I'd be able to find a way to structure some kind of deal to be sure I wasn't evicted from an apartment. Could you figure a way out of that "thicket"?

This doesn't mean his character is flawed; it means he isn't near the point where he is a responsible adult.

He is NOT guilty of DUI. Thank you for acknowledging that as an pro athlete with $$$ he gets to play by a different set of ruiles than you or I would in identical circumstances. What he doemonstrated in that circumstance was self-preservation which is not exactly the same thing as responsible adulthood. If I had to guess - yes, I said GUESS - I would say that he probably had a few "pops" at Gardner's birthday party and probably had a BAC above the legal limit when he was pulled over. But we'll never KNOW that just as we won't ever KNOW who killed Nicole Brown Simpson until OJ finds the real killers.

Then there is his musical agents game. And after he fired various agents, he somehow thought it was a good idea to hire an agent/company that specializes in baseball players and not NFL players. Note Jeff Moorad who negotiated his deal is now the GM of the Arizona D-Backs. So, what is the mature and rational thought process that would lead one to do something like that? There aren't a lot of possibilities here. Either he is fundamentally stupid or he took some bad advice from someone without doing a lot of checking on that advice, Neither of these possibililties foreshadows the emergence of a mature and rational adult any time soon.

Once again, he's not a bad person and his character is not flawed; he's just not acting like an adult.

Then Joe Gibbs says he wants 100% team participation in the off-season voluntary workouts. If you want ot be a "team guy" but you know in your heart that you don't like your contract and your agent says you have to "withhold your services" to get a new one, you need to try to figure out a way to withhold your services without pissing off the coach. I can think of a couple of ways to do this, but not showing up and not leaving the coach with an explanation that keeps this out of the papers as a big brouhaha isn't one of them.

I am not attacking Sean Taylor's character; he may indeed be a wonderful human being. But he has yet to demonstrate - by HIS benaviors off the field - that he is much more than an immature 16 year old from a rich family with access to loads of $$$.

Lots of those kinds of people never reach any real adult maturity either; the jury is still out on Sean Taylor.

Alright; I get what your saying now. I dont agree 100% with everything you wrote; but I understand where its coming from now. I misunderstood what you were saying before. I still think we should wait a little while before giving him the meathead title, but I can't really argue for some of the things he's done. Nice post.