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GTripp0012 03-01-2014, 01:56 AM Sounds like calling the winner of a race after a 1/4 mile when there's still another mile to go. More time allows for more results, and isn't that what we're judging?Except we're not judging the race, we're judging the people betting on the race.
If you have a drunk who is throwing crazy money around because he could potentially win a lot of money betting on a race, does it really matter whether we judge the drunk when the race is 1/4 over or at the end? He could cash in big...but he's still the drunk guy throwing cash around.
This may come as a shock to some, but we (the fans) don't get to decide who wins the race.
GTripp0012 03-01-2014, 02:12 AM No, you fool, we are judging the process. If the process is perfect - drafting talent in its expected place; finding "bargains" and making trades that appear to get more value than they give up - then you have had a successful draft. It doesn't matter who the players are.
<sigh>
Grading a draft is so subjective, even when to grade is subjective. There are extremes like (obviously bad) NO trading it's entire draft to us in order to get Ricky Williams to say, Baltimore's (great) 1997 draft in which it turned it's two first round picks into two HOF'ers (Lewis and Ogden). In each case, it was pretty clear from the get go that the draft was good or bad.
Most, however, have to wait. A few years ago (2007) everyone raved about Cleveland's ability to trade into the first round to get Brady Quinn and how they were so astute to do so. Three years later, doesn't look too smart to trade up for BQ. Ultimately, in my opinion, barring obvious "fails", like not getting your card up in time or obvious FO dysfunction in the pick, it is just silly to judge a draft on anything other than player production.
Regardless how they got picked - good value, bad value, blah blah blah ... what did the rookies picked produce? Everybody starts every draft with the same base number of picks. Some are traded away, some are gained ... at the end of the day, who got the most productive (qualitatively and quantitatively) rookies out of a draft. That's who had the best draft.As someone who would have given Cleveland a passing grade on draft day 2007, they still had Quinn hold out and not play at all as a rookie. And two years in, their return on that draft class looked...a lot like it does right now. Our eyes weren't lying to us there.
There's nothing wrong with waiting 5 years to come up with an opinion on someone's draft. It's nothing if not careful judgment. But by the time you've arrived at your opinion, everyone else has already beat you there. By two years in, you pretty much know what you're going to know about a draft, and the questions you still have will be minor and very specific.
Two years in, it's totally non-controversial to think Robert Griffin is a really good player, who is a electric runner, a nice-but-developing pocket passer, and has some warts on his game particularly once he breaks the pocket, and a fumble problem he needs to clean up.
Do I know if the rest of the Redskins team is going to grow with him and support a great career? I do not. But I'm also not exactly judging the 2012 draft when I ask if the Redskins can get enough talent around him to win consistently. What I'm doing is judging the 2014-15 drafts and then pretending to bring it back to 2012 under the principle of prudence.
-EDIT-
Something occurred to me after my post...why did the Ricky Williams trade strike you as such an obviously flawed trade if you aren't going to say the same about the RG3 trade? Hindsight tells me Williams had a pretty darn accomplished NFL career. You're at least suggesting that New Orleans' process was so horribly flawed that Williams was going to be helpless to justify it.
Washington more or less pulled the same thing here. Maybe not exactly the same, but my original point was pretty self evident: you can't make bad decisions and expect good results. You can get good results from bad decisions, but if that happens, you don't double down on bad decisions, right? Right?
My other point is also pretty self-evident: if two years after a decision you can't justify the decision as good...then the alternative has to be true.
EARTHQUAKE2689 03-01-2014, 12:36 PM As someone who would have given Cleveland a passing grade on draft day 2007, they still had Quinn hold out and not play at all as a rookie. And two years in, their return on that draft class looked...a lot like it does right now. Our eyes weren't lying to us there.
There's nothing wrong with waiting 5 years to come up with an opinion on someone's draft. It's nothing if not careful judgment. But by the time you've arrived at your opinion, everyone else has already beat you there. By two years in, you pretty much know what you're going to know about a draft, and the questions you still have will be minor and very specific.
Two years in, it's totally non-controversial to think Robert Griffin is a really good player, who is a electric runner, a nice-but-developing pocket passer, and has some warts on his game particularly once he breaks the pocket, and a fumble problem he needs to clean up.
Do I know if the rest of the Redskins team is going to grow with him and support a great career? I do not. But I'm also not exactly judging the 2012 draft when I ask if the Redskins can get enough talent around him to win consistently. What I'm doing is judging the 2014-15 drafts and then pretending to bring it back to 2012 under the principle of prudence.
-EDIT-
Something occurred to me after my post...why did the Ricky Williams trade strike you as such an obviously flawed trade if you aren't going to say the same about the RG3 trade? Hindsight tells me Williams had a pretty darn accomplished NFL career. You're at least suggesting that New Orleans' process was so horribly flawed that Williams was going to be helpless to justify it.
Washington more or less pulled the same thing here. Maybe not exactly the same, but my original point was pretty self evident: you can't make bad decisions and expect good results. You can get good results from bad decisions, but if that happens, you don't double down on bad decisions, right? Right?
My other point is also pretty self-evident: if two years after a decision you can't justify the decision as good...then the alternative has to be true.
Maybe I am stupid, but how can you not justify the decision on both sides as being good??
diehardskin2982 03-01-2014, 02:50 PM Round 2: Kelvin Benjamin or Jordan Matthews WR- We need a complimentary wide-out to Garcon and these two fit the bill. I think one of these guys will be there at our pick. I like the physical attributes of Benjamin, Matthews will be a great pro because of he mental make up and knowledge of the game.
Round 3: Chris Borland ILB or Troy Niklas, TE- Chris is short like London, is a great leader like London, Plays like London. Troy has size and plays physical. Has played H-Back, think a bigger, faster Cooley.
Round 4: Christian Jones ILB or Anthony Steen OG- Jones is the best cover LB in the draft matched with a strong run stopping inside linebacker like Brandon Spikes would instantly upgrade the LB group. Steen was a powerhouse OG at Alabama until his injury. He could a starter at LG.
Round 5: Daniel McCullers, DT or Ross Cockrell CB- McCullers is a monster of a man and strong traditional NT that could anchor the D-line for years to come. Ross is a physical corner from Duke, smart and can contribute on special teams.
Round 6: De'Anthony Thomas or Dri Archer PR/KR- game changing speed players that have played KR/PR in their college careers with legendary results.
Round 7: L'Damian Washington or Marcus Lucas WR Missouri- great size and speed. Both would be a great project player to develop. He also play as the gunner on special teams. Can contribute to the game day roster in that role.
Except we're not judging the race, we're judging the people betting on the race.
If you have a drunk who is throwing crazy money around because he could potentially win a lot of money betting on a race, does it really matter whether we judge the drunk when the race is 1/4 over or at the end? He could cash in big...but he's still the drunk guy throwing cash around.
This may come as a shock to some, but we (the fans) don't get to decide who wins the race.
Well, I'm judging the race.
The decision to get him is over and done.
If he wins a SB is anyone going to look back and say it wasn't worth it?
Irrefutable 03-01-2014, 03:15 PM Round 2: Kelvin Benjamin or Jordan Matthews WR- We need a complimentary wide-out to Garcon and these two fit the bill. I think one of these guys will be there at our pick. I like the physical attributes of Benjamin, Matthews will be a great pro because of he mental make up and knowledge of the game.
Round 3: Chris Borland ILB or Troy Niklas, TE- Chris is short like London, is a great leader like London, Plays like London. Troy has size and plays physical. Has played H-Back, think a bigger, faster Cooley.
Round 4: Christian Jones ILB or Anthony Steen OG- Jones is the best cover LB in the draft matched with a strong run stopping inside linebacker like Brandon Spikes would instantly upgrade the LB group. Steen was a powerhouse OG at Alabama until his injury. He could a starter at LG.
Round 5: Daniel McCullers, DT or Ross Cockrell CB- McCullers is a monster of a man and strong traditional NT that could anchor the D-line for years to come. Ross is a physical corner from Duke, smart and can contribute on special teams.
Round 6: De'Anthony Thomas or Dri Archer PR/KR- game changing speed players that have played KR/PR in their college careers with legendary results.
Round 7: L'Damian Washington or Marcus Lucas WR Missouri- great size and speed. Both would be a great project player to develop. He also play as the gunner on special teams. Can contribute to the game day roster in that role.
I like the players you mention, however the Redskins cannot afford to draft 2 WRs and a special team player. They need lineman.
Alvin Walton 03-01-2014, 04:06 PM Round 2: Kelvin Benjamin or Jordan Matthews WR- We need a complimentary wide-out to Garcon and these two fit the bill. I think one of these guys will be there at our pick. I like the physical attributes of Benjamin, Matthews will be a great pro because of he mental make up and knowledge of the game.
Round 3: Chris Borland ILB or Troy Niklas, TE- Chris is short like London, is a great leader like London, Plays like London. Troy has size and plays physical. Has played H-Back, think a bigger, faster Cooley.
Round 4: Christian Jones ILB or Anthony Steen OG- Jones is the best cover LB in the draft matched with a strong run stopping inside linebacker like Brandon Spikes would instantly upgrade the LB group. Steen was a powerhouse OG at Alabama until his injury. He could a starter at LG.
Round 5: Daniel McCullers, DT or Ross Cockrell CB- McCullers is a monster of a man and strong traditional NT that could anchor the D-line for years to come. Ross is a physical corner from Duke, smart and can contribute on special teams.
Round 6: De'Anthony Thomas or Dri Archer PR/KR- game changing speed players that have played KR/PR in their college careers with legendary results.
Round 7: L'Damian Washington or Marcus Lucas WR Missouri- great size and speed. Both would be a great project player to develop. He also play as the gunner on special teams. Can contribute to the game day roster in that role.
Meanwhile RG3 runs for his life with a lot of grass stains on his ass.
diehardskin2982 03-01-2014, 05:26 PM ^Not if you signed Alex Mack, Geoff Schwartz and Anthony Collins in free agency.
We have drafted 9 OL players in the past 10 years with no results. It's not who you draft, it's how you develop them.
Irrefutable 03-01-2014, 06:36 PM ^Not if you signed Alex Mack, Geoff Schwartz and Anthony Collins in free agency.
We have drafted 9 OL players in the past 10 years with no results. It's not who you draft, it's how you develop them.
I think Trent Williams is a decent player. I think it is very important who you draft, there are very few late round or UDFAs players that "develop" into pro bowl players... the days of Joe Jacoby are gone.
The Redskins have used 2 picks in the first four rounds of the last 5 drafts on O lineman. Trent, and Josh LeRibieus, we are still waiting for Josh to develop into a player worthy of the active roster.
Chico23231 03-01-2014, 06:52 PM Trent is a top tackle period
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