One last thing about Coles...

Coles is gone; the Skins might have handled the siutation a bit more adroitly, but nothing's going to change that now.

Here's are a couple of things I want to know:

How does anyone here know that Coles was unceremoniously ushered out of New York by the Jets? To hear Danny the Great tell it - and to hear Warpath posters revel in it - the Redskins swooped in and took away that horribly valuable asset from the cheapskate Jets' ownership. Why did the Jets take him back? Maybe they really didn't want to lose him in the first place...


How do we know that Joe Gibbs listens to his players and takes input from them about play calls and game plans? Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't; maybe he pretends to listen but ignores whatever players tell him and goes on his merry way. For the record, I'd much prefer to have the coaches worry about the game plan and then take some input from players as the game is progressing as the players report back on things the opposition is doing out there on the field. But I'm not the coach here so my way of doing things just doesn't matter a whole lot...

Matty - Coles proved to me he was a good player and a nice guy.

Gibbs while being a nice guy and a good leader has yet to show me anything, in this milenium, that resembles a great offense. Gibbs kept saying during the season he had to make changes, he didn't. He blamed the WR, he had the #2 defense most of the year, you should be able to win games when you have a defense playing like that.

I don't dislike Gibbs at all, and I would rip Spurrier from time to time too. Overall I think he was a great coach with a bad rap and he treated them too loosely at first and was never able to regain control.

When I went to Thanksgiving my... grandmothers brother (whatever that is to me) who has been in DC for his whole life since the Redskins got there, and who used to be a fan, but has since left told me Gibbs was the most overrated coach ever. It was a long time ago and I don't remember the exact facts, but it made since. Winning in strike years with great personel directors throughout his career. I battled him about it the whole time, but he did make good points. I never brought it up because I don't have the facts quickly at my advantage to argue with you guys, so it's really not worth it. I'm just saying he made some very solid points about Gibbs.

While I don't believe that, I don't feel Gibbs has done the job on offense he needs to do. Like every coach he has three years to improve the team, or at least his portion of it, the offense. You guys keep pulling up the past, that's well and good - he was a great coach then, however it's now and he has shown me very little to back thus far. If you guys were basing him on a first year coach I'm sure many more people would be on my side of the fence. I'm not saying can him, but if the offense is anything like last year - time to hire a coordinator.

Gibbs has great qualities as a coach and can lead men - but people need to stop living off his reputation and see if he can still coach. If he can't, then I wouldn't be suprised, but I wouldn't think he wasn't a good coach. He's exactly what I like in terms of a man, if he can get his playcalling up to snuff I'll be happy with him, otherwise he's just another mediocre coach. Does it diminish what he once did? Absolutely not. I think that the game of football has evolved a lot since even the 80's. I think the old Steelers teams would be crushed by some of the play today. Guys are bigger, smarter, faster, and schemes are more advanced. Just my two cents.

Coles a nice guy? How do you come to that conclusion?

As for Gibbs I think it's a little premature to write his legacy for his second run. He has one season under his belt after over a decade away from the game. People were writing him off half way through last season, that's just ridiculous. A few years from now I'd like to see where this conversation leads us.

Let's at least give him one more season before we start to question his coaching abilities. 2004 was a season full of adjustments for him, and I think he would be the first to admit that. Let's give the man a chance.

You say he blamed the WR, but you left out the fact he always blames himself first and foremost.

As for Gibbs being the most overrated coach ever, that's laughable but it's one person's opinion.

I don't see how winning during strike years is a negative. You still have to qualify for the playoffs and win in January. If anything it was impressive how he was able to hold the team unified, especially in '87. He even guided a scab team to a 3-0 record and they beat the Cowboys with several players who crossed the line.

Then there was also '91 when they were one of the best overall teams in the history of the league, no strike that year.

Matty, first of all I certainly didn't write him off. I've said plenty of times he has three years, which is an acceptable time frame to get everything together. Like every other coach who comes in, 3 years, do you disagree with that. Just assume in three years we're still the bottom 1/4 of offenses in the league, will you still staunchly defend him?

The problem with 2004 was it WASN'T full of adjustments. What adjustments during the year did we make to improve the offense? The answer is nearly none. We'd find something that worked (zone blocking) then abandon it the next week. That's the scary part for me.

Did or didn't Gibbs win in a weakened league thanks to strike, etc? Did he or did he not out personel most other coaches? Not necessarily bad, but still interesting. As I said, it's not my argument to make because I don't have sufficient information to make those claims.

How is Coles a bad guy? You were yelling at me for telling him he needs surgery and all about him three weeks ago, what happened, Matty? He's still the same person, he's shown me nothing bad about his personallity. He asked to be released, players do this all the time, does it make them evil? Why should he help a team that threatened him right before he left, why not get his money from the Jets?

Coles a nice guy? How do you come to that conclusion?

As for Gibbs I think it's a little premature to write his legacy for his second run. He has one season under his belt after over a decade away from the game. People were writing him off half way through last season, that's just ridiculous. A few years from now I'd like to see where this conversation leads us.

Let's at least give him one more season before we start to question his coaching abilities. 2004 was a season full of adjustments for him, and I think he would be the first to admit that. Let's give the man a chance.

You say he blamed the WR, but you left out the fact he always blames himself first and foremost.

As for Gibbs being the most overrated coach ever, that's laughable but it's one person's opinion.

I don't see how winning during strike years is a negative. You still have to qualify for the playoffs and win in January. If anything it was impressive how he was able to hold the team unified, especially in '87. He even guided a scab team to a 3-0 record and they beat the Cowboys with several players who crossed the line.

Then there was also '91 when they were one of the best overall teams in the history of the league, no strike that year.

Great points Matty I would also just like to add that he is in the top three in NFL history in winning percentage in the regular season behind only Madden and Lombardi. And second in Playoff winning percentage. If that isnt a good coach then I dont know what is. Finally I would like anyone to leave a job for 12 years and come back to it and see how they fair initially.

As Matty says, Gibbs went 3-0 with a team full of "scab" players and the Skins played a Cowboys team during that team that had many key players cross the line. To say that he won in a weakened league, to me, implies that the Redskins had some sort of advantage over all the other teams.

If it was "weakened" it was weakened across the board, including the Redskins

And 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs and 3 different RBs is pretty impressive, at least I think so.

Daseal, Matty was yelling at you? Really?

Lets see if i can get this right!

Gibbs-3 SUPER BOWL wins

Coles- 0 apperances

Who to you is more proven to lead a team Gibbs or Coles? You decide

I don't use yell in the traditional sense, not saying he's being rude or impatient. Just meant he's talking at me!

As I said before, I can't make a valid argument because I don't have all the facts.

Monk-Fan - stop living in the past. Coles wins last season - 6. Gibbs wins last season - 6. Games Coles lost for us - 0. Games Gibbs lost for us - 4-7

As Matty says, Gibbs went 3-0 with a team full of "scab" players and the Skins played a Cowboys team during that team that had many key players cross the line. To say that he won in a weakened league, to me, implies that the Redskins had some sort of advantage over all the other teams.

If it was "weakened" it was weakened across the board, including the Redskins

And 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs and 3 different RBs is pretty impressive, at least I think so.

Daseal, Matty was yelling at you? Really?

Gibbs did an amazing job with the "replacement" players. The weakened league argument is lame. Phil Jackson did the same thing with my Spurs put an asterisk after the Spurs 99 championship...well someone still has to win the championship during these lockout/strike times.....when you don't play as many games or play with replacements it makes consistency even more difficult, more work for the coaches, and players.............These championships STILL count!!!! HAIL TO THE REDSKINS AND GO SPURS GO :headbange

Off topic a bit. But lets trade Brunell to the Texans for Charlie Casserly. I see two positives here. We maintain the ongoing goal of making sure that the state of Texas never has a decent football program again. And we get our boy back.

:laughing2 ....hey it could work afterall didn't Snyder call Cass and apologize said he fired the wrong guy.......But unfortunately, I don't think your plan would work Monksdown, not all football owners are as stupid as Jerry "Facelift" Jones, the Texans owner is an intelligent man and wouldn't go for it..........too bad because we need to replace Vince ;)