Smithsonian Museum - yet another thread on team name

Just curious....how is it decided that something is derogatory? For example...the N word is clearly so...all of society would agree. Even those who would use the term use it pejoratively. Contrast that with Redskin. Freely used by many in an obviously non-pejorative way. Seems like those who would be offended dont actually agree that it is indeed offensive. Yet it seems many, even the dictionary, have decided it is a offensive word. How does that work? Could we get a movement together to deem the word cowboy offensive? Seriously. Is all it takes is a few vocal people to take offense and suddenly a word is offensive?

Doesn't it matter that the term's offensiveness is debated and that it is actually being used in a manner meant to honor?

I live in "native America " and I have redskins decked on my car and I've never had one person say anything

I did not say prominently. You said you did not hear it once, and asked if anyone else had. While I have heard it used in a derogatory manner more than once, I would not use the word prominently.

Since most people don't read entire threads and keep straight who is who, let me restate my original posting (paraphrasing because I don't feel like looking it up):

I see both sides of this issue. I have many friends that played for the Redskins and see their love and loyalty to the team and the name associated with it. I have also seen hateful words and can see legitimately where this is seen by a race of people as one. It is a tough issue with strong feelings on both sides of the argument.

I don't know any Native Americans, haven't been in their environment, so I ask this purely out of ignorance:
Is the word "Redskin" seen by the whole race as a hateful word.
I am fairly confident that any black man or woman who is called a n***** by someone outside their personal circle would take offense at it, and it was used often that way very recently.
I guess I don't see the word "Redskin" as that same widespread angst, more so a smaller portion that portrays itself as speaking for the whole.

I don't know any Native Americans, haven't been in their environment, so I ask this purely out of ignorance:
Is the word "Redskin" seen by the whole race as a hateful word.
I am fairly confident that any black man or woman who is called a n***** by someone outside their personal circle would take offense at it, and it was used often that way very recently.
I guess I don't see the word "Redskin" as that same widespread angst, more so a smaller portion that portrays itself as speaking for the whole.
I think it would be impossible to say a "whole race" with any word. You will always have someone who will "own" the word.

That is what is evolving with the N word. There is a portion of African American society that is taking ownership of the word, and an entirely different portion that is offended by the action. We are discussing shades of gray, not black and white.

Good point. Many have tried to put the word Redskin on equal footing with the N word, but if another team called themselves that in 1933 would it have even been tolerated? Even 1933? Not saying Native Americans shouldn't be offended by the word Redskin, because who's to tell anyone what should or shouldn't offend them, but the word has become far more associated with the football team than as a slur. And don't polls show that most Native Americans aren't offended by the Redskins use of the term?

Although it originated as a derogatory word intended to inflict harm, isn't it possible that the word has evolved into something positive? Or that the use of the word altogether has ceased except in this one particular case?

Someone, some group or society as a whole decided to use the word as a slur. Isn't it possible for another generation's someone, some group or society as a whole to decide it no longer has any application whatsoever as a derogatory word?

I'd hate to see the name changed, but I'm all for eliminating the Indian head logo. I like the R helmet anyway.

I just feel like fans adore the name, because it's associated with the team they love. The negative connotation no longer exists.

Not me. If they get rid of the Indian head logo I would want the spear helmets.

I think it would be impossible to say a "whole race" with any word. You will always have someone who will "own" the word.

That is what is evolving with the N word. There is a portion of African American society that is taking ownership of the word, and an entirely different portion that is offended by the action. We are discussing shades of gray, not black and white.
I disagree entirely with that. If a non black uses the n word it will only be received negatively, even though within the black community it has some slang uses. But none of those uses would rise to the positive connotation of the term Redskins when used referring to the football team. There is far more contrast with respect to those terms than simple shades of gray.

If you look in a thesaurus, "Yellow Man" is a derogatory term for an Asian. Same with Redskin for a Native American. Back when the Redskins were name (1933), Redskin was a common term, as was Yellow Man, the N word (see what I mean) and many other terms that are now offensive.

I personally don't see a problem with a name like the Chiefs, Braves, Warriors etc as they are not negative terms. They are no different than the Raiders, Vikings, Bucs etc.

Look at it this way, would you walk up to a Native American and refer to him as a "Redskin" to his face? That to me is a good way to judge if the term is offensive.

The difference with your examples and others are the Packers were named after meat packers. The Giants were named after mythical, larger than life figures. Redskins were always intended to represent Native Americans.

You actually destroy your first answer with your second. The intent of the words you are using were not in question back in the day. Nigger (If its censored, which I suspect it will, the n-word) and Yellow man were ALWAYS meant as a racist term aka a derogatory term. Redskin was neutral until 20 or 30 years ago.

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Here is one Indian Reservation that I would go to and say Redskin, since they themselves do it as well. I have also worn Redskins gear onto a different Indian reservation. It did not turn out how you want to claim that it would. I got high fives and a large portion were Redskins fans themselves.

Do the Indians have a say in this? And if not, isnt that in and of itself racist?

At this point I am going to bow out of this conversation, especially since I legitimately see both points, but am sort of in a position to only debate from the one side. I will close with this.

I grew up out West (the town RG3 is from for a time and then the Phoenix area for a majority of my childhood). I am old enough to remember the Indian school in Phoenix where children were essentially forceably removed from their parents to assimilate the future generations into our culture. The children were also then "hired out" to local families as house keepers, babysitters etc.

As strongly as most of the diehard fans feel about the issue on this site feel, even stronger are the people objecting because of real life issues. Just try to look at things from the other side and while your position might not change, your feelings towards their efforts might.

I lived in NC my whole life, and my mother's family is from Fayetteville, NC. I have never in my 40 years of living heard anybody use the term Redskins as a derogatory meaning. I seriously doubt the claim by LoS that he heard it used out West. Mind you, Fayetteville is part of the area the Lumbee Indians call home. (formerly Cherokees)

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At this point I am going to bow out of this conversation, especially since I legitimately see both points, but am sort of in a position to only debate from the one side. I will close with this.

I grew up out West (the town RG3 is from for a time and then the Phoenix area for a majority of my childhood). I am old enough to remember the Indian school in Phoenix where children were essentially forceably removed from their parents to assimilate the future generations into our culture. The children were also then "hired out" to local families as house keepers, babysitters etc.

As strongly as most of the diehard fans feel about the issue on this site feel, even stronger are the people objecting because of real life issues. Just try to look at things from the other side and while your position might not change, your feelings towards their efforts might.

I don't see how the name of a football team has anything to do with any of that. The key facts are this:

1. The name redskin was coined by native Americans to refer to themselves. It had no derogatory usage at the time.

2. When the name was chosen for the team, it was still not pejorative.

3. LATER, SOME people may have used the word in a pejorative way.

4. Today, the word is not used in a derogatory way. When the name redskin is used, people universally think of the team.