The Obama Years- A GOP love story

Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally :)

Well the fact is T this may have been avoided if Obama would have lead to begin with. Reactive policy isnt the way to lead, and thats where we are at.

You seen Iraq lately? the country is cut into 3 parts right now.

Obama policy tends to be stand at a dam wall and plug the holes with his fingers as leaks start appearing. You think thats the right way to do things? The administration is seriously lacking a third eye...piss poor is a better discription.

You're absolutely right. This issue, as with many other foreign policy issues we're facing right now, can easily be traced back to the last 6 years of bad foreign policy on behalf of the administration.

That's the easy conversation to have. I don't know many people that are informed on the goings-on int he world that think we've done a good job in the last 6 years. Africa is becoming a mess. The middle east is a mess. Eastern europe is a mess. Central America is a mess.

Ironically enough Afghanistan is the only success and as far as I know Bush is the one that deserves credit, not Obama. Everything else is a complete disaster right now.

The harder conversation to have is what do we do *now*.

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally :)

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

I will let it go after one last statement, because it seems like you don't really want to believe there are other ways to handle this.

my last statement:
The US President has a bully pulpit like no other in the world, and the assets to assess rapidly occurring events with amazing efficiency. In THIS case, an unarmed, civilian, aircraft flying along a well known flight path, shot down with anti aircraft missiles, that bully pulpit should have been used to initiate specific responses - several of which I outlined. I don't care if it's a republican president, a democratic president, or a libertarian president. Our position in the world and the office of the Presidency demands that we have more than a Hallmark card response. We didn't see that in THIS case, which happens to be under President Obama's watch.

my last "specific responses":
-- Emergency meeting with National Security Advisors and top congressional members from both parties
-- Televised national unity speech that outlines concerns for air traffic safety, and use of anti-aircraft rockets against civilian flights
-- Send FAA advisors to Ukraine today and make a public show that they either are being allowed on site immediately or question why not.
-- (privately yesterday, and assuming the yes answer announce first thing this morning) offer US AWAC monitoring over Ukranian Air Space. It does put us at a small risk, that someone might shoot an AWAC down, but it sends a HUGE message that commercial airspace is important to the US. Even Offer joint missions with Russia if the President decides to do that, I remember when Reagan offered to share SDI with Russia, sure it's not likely they will accept the offer, but you are leading not reacting.
-- Call for the UN to authorize IMMEDIATE peacekeeping troops
-- Reiterate that Crimea is part of Ukraine sovereign territory.

The US could have done any or all of these things without any risk (except the AWACs) of a shooting war between Russia and the US, and it would have presented a far different path then one where your adversary sees you attending a partisan event, with no notable response to such an egregious act.

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

I will let it go after one last statement, because it seems like you don't really want to believe there are other ways to handle this.

Ok.

I'm not sure why you think that way, I was trying to be very open and genuine in asking what should be done and I thought I responded thoughtfully to your last post. Oh well.

By the way - You have no way of knowing that many of your suggested actions have not been, or not currently in the process of being, done. Just sayin'.

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.

Ok.

I'm not sure why you think that way, I was trying to be very open and genuine in asking what should be done and I thought I responded thoughtfully to your last post. Oh well.

By the way - You have no way of knowing that many of your suggested actions have not been, or not currently in the process of being, done. Just sayin'.
I think that you have summarily dismissed every suggestion with your last line "have not been or not currently in the process of being done" but that's simply wrong.

I know the following:
The President did NOT have a televised address to the country.
The President did NOT have FAA technicians on the ground in the Ukraine this morning, waiting to gain entry to the crash site.
The President did NOT meet with bipartisan members of congress while at the fund raiser.
The President did NOT in his initial public statement (or subsequent ones that I am aware of) condemn military force against commercial airlines and call publicly for all sides to acknowledge that safe passage of civilian airlines is an unmoveable fact.

Yes some things happen in the backdrop, but THIS incident should have been, imo, handle openly and forcefully within moments of assessing that it was a military rocket hitting a civilian airline, and the world knows it was not.

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.

Im/We are outraged over the airliner, why are we not? The shooting of the plane is a rally point, you honor the victims by ending all this foolishness...I dont get fake outrage, 9/11 was feign outrage to invade Afganistan and stop the Taliban? Why cant we seek justice, do the investigation and stop the war in the Ukraine? See what i mean is this generation cant hold focus, its instant gratification and then move on. Internet shaming wont work on Russia.