|
|
punch it in 10-27-2012, 03:10 PM Historically, it seems to me, dynasties get created with a mix of two things - great coaching and great QBs. Sometimes it's more QB than coach. Other times the reverse. This is true even before the modern era (Paul Brown/Otto Graham, Luckman/Halas, Flaherty/Baugh).
Seven games into this season, it appears we have one-half of the equation in RGIII. Shanahan has shown he can be the other half but the question is can he be that again.
Thank you for this. Goat you should really un-ignore him to read this. Lol. This is so true. The truth of the matter is that we all know RG-3 has shown he is quite capable of being a championship quarterback, or so it would seem after 7 frikkin games - wow. Shanny definitely still has something to prove and even most of the "apologists" have agreed that if the team is not a winning team by 2013-14 that maybe the game has passed him by.
Also I want to add that its not as simple as sitting here and going - walsh/ montana - bellicheck/ brady. Lets not forget that without a great gm that niners team isnt as good or what Beathard did for the skins. Everybody is forgetting key little areas of football teams that ALSO contribute to winning championships. The Chicago Bears in 85 and the Baltimore Ravens in 2000 were won because of DEFENSE. The Steel Curtain? The New York Giants vs Pats Version 1. The Skins had a dominant o-line that carried three different qb's to three super bowl titles. Its not so black and white as a coach and a qb.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That Guy 10-27-2012, 03:33 PM hey guys, i've got a great idea! agree with me or you're an idiot!
it's so simple.
and as far as bill w/o brady, check out the cleveland years. he was terrible and got canned. pre brady he was 41-55. I don't know about you, but that just screams hall of fame to me.
Mechanix544 10-27-2012, 03:36 PM Insert "You're Wrong" video here.
Look at the records from 94-08. The Chargers, Chiefs and Oakland all had several strong seasons and the division had several seasons of multiple 10+ win teams.
Does either matter now? No. He's got back to back double digit losing seasons here. Does that mean he has done nothing right here? Nope.
It just means he needs to do some winning.
I would think to prove your point, being a lawyer and all, you would know that an argument like that, if you are going to try and make it, holds little water. A much better argument would to take their out of division schedules during that time span, and see how they measure up. But I'd wager that might not support your argument, maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it would be a much better barometer of success, ie "actually being a good division", especially when alot of people consider the AFC West to be kinda crappy, especially when Shanahan was churning out near .500 ball in denver from around 2005 on. Another possible barometer would be his playoff wins. 1 in 14 years.............ughhhhhhhhhhh
BTW, shanny is 35 - 45 his last 80 games. Not that great.
Let the flaming begin.
punch it in 10-27-2012, 03:45 PM hey guys, i've got a great idea! agree with me or you're an idiot!
it's so simple.
and as far as bill w/o brady, check out the cleveland years. he was terrible and got canned. pre brady he was 41-55. I don't know about you, but that just screams hall of fame to me.
Look at how parcells had more success with belleckeck than he did without him.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mechanix544 10-27-2012, 03:46 PM hey guys, i've got a great idea! agree with me or you're an idiot!
it's so simple.
and as far as bill w/o brady, check out the cleveland years. he was terrible and got canned. pre brady he was 41-55. I don't know about you, but that just screams hall of fame to me.
Quite the point.
It kinda feels good to know that if there is one exception to the "being a great coach, you still can't do much without a stud QB" policy, its our own joe gibbs, who in his second term, equaled in three years the # of playoff wins that Shanahan had over a 12 season period after his stud QB retired. I think that I might go so far as to say that even if we go to the playoffs this year, Shanahan still has not impressed.
With Elway, 3 straight years of deep playoff runs, 2 being super bowl victories.
The next 14 years = 1 playoff victory with no Elway or RG3
RG3's first year - Playoffs??????
See a "possible" prevailing theme here? Even going farther, Shanahan sucked eggs with Los Angeles for 2 years. Guess what? Jay Shroeder was his QB, Bo Jackson was his RB. Still didn't sniff the playoffs his first two years. Then, for 4 straight years upon coming to the Broncos, he has wonderful success. Then Elway retires, and he is a below average coach, whom the fan base in Denver hated so much and thought he was so bad, they were calling for the guys head his last 4 years there. And this is the coach that won 2 straight super bowls for them........Maybe the Denver fan base knew a little secret that noone else knew. That their long time coach was propped up legacy wise and career wise by John Elway, and after him, a ridiculously weak AFC West (regular season champs, postseason chumps). = OVERRATED.
If we do sneak into the playoffs, I still believe its due to RG3's will, and not Shanahans genius. I believe it would be in spite of Shanahan. But thats just MHO, and I will still root for our team.
LOVE YA JOE!!!!!!!!
Skinzman 10-27-2012, 04:07 PM Quite the point.
It kinda feels good to know that if there is one exception to the "being a great coach, you still can't do much without a stud QB" policy, its our own joe gibbs, who in his second term, equaled in three years the # of playoff wins that Shanahan had over a 12 season period after his stud QB retired. I think that I might go so far as to say that even if we go to the playoffs this year, Shanahan still has not impressed.
Might as well expand that out to be that if Shanny wins 5 SB's in a row, you wont be impressed. You dont like Shanny, so it will be all RG3 if we do.
With Elway, 3 straight years of deep playoff runs, 2 being super bowl victories.
The next 14 years = 1 playoff victory with no Elway or RG3
RG3's first year - Playoffs??????
See a "possible" prevailing theme here?
Yes, there is a prevailing theme. Stud QB's make a helluva difference. Does these even need to be explained?
If we do sneak into the playoffs, I still believe its due to RG3's will, and not Shanahans genius. I believe it would be in spite of Shanahan. But thats just MHO, and I will still root for our team.
LOVE YA JOE!!!!!!!!
Oh look, more of the same. Again, you guys keep wanting us to ignore that most of what are considered great coaches won with great QB's. Yet you refuse to "see a prevailing theme" yourself.
You dropped in an edit:
Even going farther, Shanahan sucked eggs with Los Angeles for 2 years. Guess what? Jay Shroeder was his QB, Bo Jackson was his RB. Still didn't sniff the playoffs his first two years. Then, for 4 straight years upon coming to the Broncos, he has wonderful success. Then Elway retires, and he is a below average coach, whom the fan base in Denver hated so much and thought he was so bad, they were calling for the guys head his last 4 years there. And this is the coach that won 2 straight super bowls for them........Maybe the Denver fan base knew a little secret that noone else knew. That their long time coach was propped up legacy wise and career wise by John Elway, and after him, a ridiculously weak AFC West (regular season champs, postseason chumps). = OVERRATED.
Are you actually calling Jay Schroeder a great QB? Ok you just lost all credibility. He was good for a year, then teams realized that all he could do was throw 50 yarders. He threw bullets for short passes and receivers always had trouble with them. Even McNabb could throw a screen, Schroeder could not. All he could do was chuck it deep down field. He was horrible as a QB, and once teams realized that you just drop 4 people 40 yards deep and use the other 7 to stop the run, Schroeder was never the same again. He had a tiny run where DC's didnt realize he couldnt throw anything except the bomb, a year later, Schroeder was done for in the NFL.
As to the Denver fan base being so intelligent. Werent they calling Tebow the next Elway? I thought so!! Tell me why im supposed to think that someone in Denver, other than Elway, has a clue about football. Btw, ask Elway about Shanny, the only guy in Denver with half a brain when it comes to football disagrees with your assessment. So if you choose to keep bringing them up, make sure you also claim that Tebow is the 2nd greatest QB ever behind Elway. Denver fans will.
punch it in 10-27-2012, 04:16 PM It is not always stud QB's! My God. Phil Simms, Vince Mcmahon, Trent Dilfer, Joe T, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson. Thats just off the top of my head. Some coaches have won in this league without stud qb's. Belichik was the mastermind behind the Giants first superbowl victory. Shanny is a great judge of running backs his ZBS is genius when you look at the utter lack of talent that he has on his offensive lines. There are coaches that win without stud qb's though!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
JoeRedskin 10-27-2012, 04:18 PM I would think to prove your point, being a lawyer and all, you would know that an argument like that, if you are going to try and make it, holds little water. A much better argument would to take their out of division schedules during that time span, and see how they measure up. But I'd wager that might not support your argument, maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it would be a much better barometer of success, ie "actually being a good division", especially when alot of people consider the AFC West to be kinda crappy, especially when Shanahan was churning out near .500 ball in denver from around 2005 on. Another possible barometer would be his playoff wins. 1 in 14 years.............ughhhhhhhhhhh
BTW, shanny is 35 - 45 his last 80 games. Not that great.
Let the flaming begin.
First, aren't you the guy who blasted me for being too lawyerly in my responses??
Second, and in short, I simply didn't intend to spend much time arguing Shanny's past b/c I think it, at best, only tangentially relevant to his current ability to succeed. As to his past, believe it or not, I think it cuts both ways. He has had both success and failure. In addition, I had, and still have, serious concerns about his ability to construct a defense and his ability as a personnel guy. To me, those were the cause of his ultimate failure in Denver - along with his dictatorial ego.
With that said, however, to baldly assert that Shanny's record was built on a cake AFC West schedule without citing records, opponents or other criteria, as was done, struck me as wrong. I remember: (1) KC as being pretty tough under Schotty and Vermeil, (2) SD having LT on the field for some of that time, and (3) Oakland winning [EDIT: appearing in] a SB somewhere in there. I simply did some quick checking on pro football reference and found, as I said, several years where the division had multiple 10+ win teams, which seemed to me to be an indicator that it wasn't quite the pushover Goat and others seem to think it was. In fact, one year (96 I think) no one in their division had a losing record (two 8-8's).
Was the AFC West a powerhouse top to bottom the entire time Shanny was there? No. But neither, as was implied, did Shanny build his record playing the 2012 Jax Jaguars. It was a good division that had solid teams. Shanahan's early successes, and again later with Plummer, give some evidence that he has the ability to succeed against solid competition. Can he still do so? He hasn't shown it yet.
Lawyerly enough for you?
punch it in 10-27-2012, 04:22 PM Oh the opinions of the internet.
Its a big research bank. It is ok to use it to back up your statements or form opinions based on said facts???
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Skinzman 10-27-2012, 04:25 PM It is not always stud QB's! My God. Phil Simms, Vince Mcmahon, Trent Dilfer, Joe T, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson. Thats just off the top of my head. Some coaches have won in this league without stud qb's. Belichik was the mastermind behind the Giants first superbowl victory. Shanny is a great judge of running backs his ZBS is genius when you look at the utter lack of talent that he has on his offensive lines. There are coaches that win without stud qb's though!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Phil Simms was actually a damn good QB. The WWE president was never a QB.
No one denies the defense that McMahon (the bears QB), Dilfer, or Johnson played with, they are some of the greatest defenses ever. The others are Joe Gibbs QB's, which Ive already stated is the greatest coach ever due to the fact that he could win without stud QB's. But winning without stud QB's is far and few between in the NFL, especially the current pass first NFL.
Although by saying that Belichick was the mastermind is to say that Parcells was a terrible coach, so yeah, cant say that I agree. I seriously doubt Parcells was just along for the Belichickian ride in NY. Something tells me Parcells was the main influence there.
|