All things Middle East related

How many Israeli civilian deaths have occurred from the indiscriminate rocket fire? How many Palestinian civilian deaths from the announced "targeted" air strikes?

I get that Hamas is guilty too. Neither side has blood free hands. But it amazes me the lengths supporters of Israel go to negate the obvious control Israel has over the whole situation. When Egypt and Jordan were part of it, Yeah, Israel was fighting for survival, but that's not the case now. Israel Egypt and Jordan have a basic understanding. Israel as a state isn't going to go extinct because Hamas is sending volleys of rockets to their doom and useless end.
Israel wants the extinction of Hamas as much as Hamas wants Israel's extinction, the only difference is Israel's attacks don't end in useless boom's, they take down 12 story buildings with civilians in them as well. They take out UN supported shelters filled with women, seniors, and children. And once in a blue moon they actually take out a leader of Hamas.

And this is exactly what keeps the israel and palestine conflict rolling

"as far back as 2008" so, how often should they be invaded and bombed out? every 6 years isn't soon enough for you? 3 israeli lives are worth an invasion and 1300+ lives in palestine (palestinian territories)?

i'm not saying hamas is right or good or anything like that. i think you're viewing this issue too emotionally though, cause nothing you posted is new or refutes anything i've said.

and it's nice that they're giving warning, but again, there are still plenty of misidentified targets leading to lots of civilian collateral damage, which has been evident.

add to that the encroachment and seizing of land that they have no legal right to (the settlements) and whose displaced owners are not compensated, and it's creates an endless circle of grievances.


btw, what's the death toll of those "indiscriminate Palestinian rocket (and mortar) attacks?" 1300? nope. 130? no, it's 33 since 2001. that's quite a bit more than 0, which is what it should be. again, rocket attacks are bad, but the response seems like taking a sledgehammer to a thumbtack.

No offense, NCSkins, but you are an idiot if you think Gaza and the West Bank are completely divorced from each other, that the faction in the West Bank hasn't launched intifadas in the past, and things are settled in either territory.

One terrorist attack was enough for us to invade afghanistan. How many rocket attacks does it take for Isreal to say that obviously Palestinians aren't yet willing to make lasting peace like the Egyptians did?


I think it's you that doesn't have a clue about the situation in Palestine/Israel. The fact you don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza tells me everything, and the fact you think it's ok for them to steal land (in a completely different area not even relating to the conflict) confirms that notion.

Can you tell me the last time a rocket attack came from the West Bank?

Notice you don't see Israel stealing Egypt's land. How much peace do you think there will be if Israel starts trying to take land in Lebanon or Egypt?


Here is some more information I suggest you read so you can be informed.

BBC News - Palestinian territories profile - Overview (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14630174)


Separate factions

The Fatah faction of the PLO ran the PNA until 2006, when Hamas won a majority in Legislative Council elections. Uneasy co-existence between PNA President Mahmoud Abbas and a Hamas-led government led to violence between armed wings of Fatah and Hamas, culminating in Hamas seizing power in Gaza in June 2007 and President Abbas dismissing the government.


They are supposedly trying to work out a unified government via this deal they agreed to in April, but I don't see it happening really.

BBC News - Hamas and Fatah unveil Palestinian reconciliation deal (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27128902)

I think it's you that doesn't have a clue about the situation in Palestine/Israel. The fact you don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza tells me everything, and the fact you think it's ok for them to steal land (in a completely different area not even relating to the conflict) confirms that notion.

Can you tell me the last time a rocket attack came from the West Bank?

Notice you don't see Israel stealing Egypt's land. How much peace do you think there will be if Israel starts trying to take land in Lebanon or Egypt?


Here is some more information I suggest you read so you can be informed.

BBC News - Palestinian territories profile - Overview (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14630174)

They are supposedly trying to work out a unified government via this deal they agreed to in April, but I don't see it happening really.

BBC News - Hamas and Fatah unveil Palestinian reconciliation deal (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27128902)Re-read what I posted, NCSkins, so you don't look so foolish next time. Where the hell did you get the warped idea that I don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza?

But thanks for posting links that the two territories are trying to work together.

If Eygpt started rocket attacks on Israel, how peaceful do you think things there would be?

When you get more informed, maybe we can have a more productive discussion. Right now you are lagging way behind the times.

Sometimes, I think the warnings are just an additional psychological warfare.
A) it reinforces the fact that the Palestinians can't stop it, which is humiliating and degrading
B) it rarely affords enough time for true evacuations, so you have x number of minutes waiting whether or not the bombs will come. For example they demolished a 12 story building a few weeks ago with 15 minute warning. I am sure that the Palestinians had plenty of time from that to have an orderly and systematic exit from their residence. Heck, I evacuate all my belongings in 10minutes every other Saturday - just for fun [/sarc]

I mean imagine a burglar so confident that he was untouchable that he tells you he is going to come in, take all your money and kill your wife in 20 minutes. You would do everything you could to make sure he couldn't. But suppose he had done it to every other house in your neighborhood, and never been stopped, or arrested. Then maybe you just feel terror that it's happening to you this time. And maybe if a group of people tell you, we can't stop the burglar but we could hurt his family, or his community, maybe you don't consider it as wrong to support that group as an outside viewer might. Maybe you just want vengeance and outsiders that don't even share your basic life views can piss in the wind.
Maybe.Lol. Nice spin, that warnings are bad. You should start a political career.

Sure, the Israelis should give a week's notice. Give plenty of time for Palestinians to call U Haul, arrange to turn off the utilities, etc. It's not like this is a shooting war or anything.

Oh, wait, the Palestinians' own government has recommended they ignore the warnings.

So, what do you recommend the Israelis do? Bear in mind everything done already in the past.

Your analogy is flawed. The homeowner in your example has pledged death to a group of people worshiping a different god than him. And has fired wildly at said people across the street. But sure, it's the people across the street that are bad for not giving enough warning, before firing back. Right?

Lol. Nice spin, that warnings are bad. You should start a political career.

Sure, the Israelis should give a week's notice. Give plenty of time for Palestinians to call U Haul, arrange to turn off the utilities, etc. It's not like this is a shooting war or anything.

Oh, wait, the Palestinians' own government has recommended they ignore the warnings.

So, what do you recommend the Israelis do? Bear in mind everything done already in the past.

Your analogy is flawed. The homeowner in your example has pledged death to a group of people worshiping a different god than him. And has fired wildly at said people across the street. But sure, it's the people across the street that are bad for not giving enough warning, before firing back. Right?
Sorry, but this goes for both sides.

They both hate each other,
They both worship a different God
They both believe the other side should be abolished (Israel being under the Talmud, not accepting the New Testament, would believe that they have to wipe everyone out just as the example of Jericho that I posted earlier displayed)
They both fire across the street,
One side has a relatively impenetrable defense, and has lost nearly no innocents in the last 15 years
One side can't protect themselves from attack, and has lost thousands of innocents over the last 15 years.

Of course they recommend to ignore the warnings. THEY CAN'T PROTECT THEMSELVES ANYWAYS. Look through some psych warfare ops, and through books on domination. There are psychological and emotional attacks far more crippling then a rocket, especially when used on mass targets. Helplessness, and control play a large part in all of that. I will admit that I am kind of fascinated by this subject right now, and have looked into basic books on it, so I am certainly keen to see that perspective, BUT, that said, when you look at it from that angle, the warnings, soft bombs, et al, very easily fit that pattern of warfare.


One internet argument I hate, is so what should x do. I'm not sitting in the NSA war room, like JR said earlier, let me - a Redskins fan on an internet board - dictate the policies of the whole world, cuz like I'm just that good. NOT.

My point isn't to describe a new world peace path, but to point out that at the very least, attacks on innocents, by all sides, should be held to judgement and international outrage. And if the Hamas total innocent deaths were 30, and Israel's were thousands, I would be saying that Hamas should be condemned. I did say that in the late 90's. But now, Hamas attacks are as ineffective as throwing stones against a Giant, well if you aren't Israel - that strategy works for them.

Re-read what I posted, NCSkins, so you don't look so foolish next time. Where the hell did you get the warped idea that I don't know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza?

But thanks for posting links that the two territories are trying to work together.

If Eygpt started rocket attacks on Israel, how peaceful do you think things there would be?

When you get more informed, maybe we can have a more productive discussion. Right now you are lagging way behind the times.


You still have avoided that fact that Israel had planned to steal land from the Palestinians that weren't even involved in the Gaza conflict.

LOL. I'll just laugh at the rhetoric you just spewed. It was obvious by your comment trying to justify Israel's land grab because you thought it was some concession for the Gaza conflict. (as noted in your quote)

That whole withdrawal from Gaza thing didn't work out. As long as rockets and terrorism continue, let the Israelis expand as they see fit.

Since no rockets or attacks have come from the West Bank, exactly how is it you see Israel has a right to land grab from the West Bank?

You still have avoided that fact that Israel had planned to steal land from the Palestinians that weren't even involved in the Gaza conflict.

LOL. I'll just laugh at the rhetoric you just spewed. It was obvious by your comment trying to justify Israel's land grab because you thought it was some concession for the Gaza conflict. (as noted in your quote)



Since no rockets or attacks have come from the West Bank, exactly how is it you see Israel has a right to land grab from the West Bank?NCSkins, you're displaying your ignorance again. If a direct link is what you need, here you go:

Monday 30 June 2014 - Bodies of three missing Israeli teenagers found in West Bank

Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach were kidnapped while hitchhiking back from their religious schools (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/30/bodies-missing-israeli-teenagers-found-west-bank)

And the land isn't stolen, it's been in dispute. Guess which side would rather launch rockets than make a permanent peace deal?

Like I said, you are way behind recent events, NCSkins. Quit while you are behind.

Sorry, but this goes for both sides.

They both hate each other,
They both worship a different God
They both believe the other side should be abolished (Israel being under the Talmud, not accepting the New Testament, would believe that they have to wipe everyone out just as the example of Jericho that I posted earlier displayed)
They both fire across the street,
One side has a relatively impenetrable defense, and has lost nearly no innocents in the last 15 years
One side can't protect themselves from attack, and has lost thousands of innocents over the last 15 years.

Of course they recommend to ignore the warnings. THEY CAN'T PROTECT THEMSELVES ANYWAYS. Look through some psych warfare ops, and through books on domination. There are psychological and emotional attacks far more crippling then a rocket, especially when used on mass targets. Helplessness, and control play a large part in all of that. I will admit that I am kind of fascinated by this subject right now, and have looked into basic books on it, so I am certainly keen to see that perspective, BUT, that said, when you look at it from that angle, the warnings, soft bombs, et al, very easily fit that pattern of warfare.


One internet argument I hate, is so what should x do. I'm not sitting in the NSA war room, like JR said earlier, let me - a Redskins fan on an internet board - dictate the policies of the whole world, cuz like I'm just that good. NOT.

My point isn't to describe a new world peace path, but to point out that at the very least, attacks on innocents, by all sides, should be held to judgement and international outrage. And if the Hamas total innocent deaths were 30, and Israel's were thousands, I would be saying that Hamas should be condemned. I did say that in the late 90's. But now, Hamas attacks are as ineffective as throwing stones against a Giant, well if you aren't Israel - that strategy works for them.Gee, why did Isreal withdraw from Gaza, rather than push the Palestinians into the sea?

So are you really saying Jericho being sacked over a thousand years ago equals this:

On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



The Call to Jihad:

------------------

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)



'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses

everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the

call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will

reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is

achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.'

(Article 33)



Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

-------------------------------------------

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)



Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

----------------------------------------------

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

[against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)
(http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)

The rest of your argument is equally bunk. Since when does winning a military confrontation automatically invalidate itself?