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skinsguy 10-23-2009, 05:03 PM The thing I'm against the most about all of this is the fanfare that comes along with the move. It's just impossible to know that Joe Gibbs is somewhere in the building and not think Super Bowl. All the pieces have to be perfectly aligned and snyched for that to be a healthy environment. And the last thing this organization needs is for there to be a disconnect between top brass and the guys playing between the white lines on Sunday.
I have a feeling that disconnect has already been disconnected long before this conversation ever came up.
AND THAT is what makes the deal good.
I personally do not believe Joe3 will be involved in any kind of chicanery cooked up by DanFinger to bamboozle fans. He is a better man than that. His history opens many doors that are closed to others. He KNOWS what is takes to win. He has proven through his NASCAR dealings and success that he can build and run a cooperate empire.
He has DS's trust and his ear. I cannot imagine WHO could be a better fit for the mission at hand, and to excoriate the cancerous Vinnie?
GTripp0012 10-23-2009, 05:05 PM Well the X factor I guess is Cerrato. Guys like Fassel and Gregg Williams (and who knows who else) couldn't work with Snyder if Cerrato was the third person in the triumvirate. Snyder made the decision to stick with Vinny and it seems to have backfired. Not that Williams or Fassel necessarily would have been the right choice. Anyhow, I suspect no one (except maybe LaVar) would have an issue working with Snyder if Gibbs was the other guy in the equation.
Again, I don't think Gibbs will come back when all is said and done but I think he could be an asset. He does have that ability to influence up close and personal, but he also is a skilled CEO who knows how to step up and properly delegate and reward.Seems like the problem was that all the potential options (after Schwartz pulled his name) were very flawed.
Snyder had good options, but he took a very long time in the process, losing some of the better names while waiting for different names.
Sadly, the same indecisiveness may have cost us a chance to salvage the season. The Detroit loss was bad, but we followed it up with a disappointing 1-2, which could have been 3-0 if we had taken a different organizational approach and gave Zorn the vote of confidence when it was appropriate.
Would it have mattered if we were 4-2, but go out this week and lose to the Eagles because they are a better team? I don't think so. This is not a good enough team to make the playoffs. But management really, really made this a bigger mess by waiting. Again.
12thMan 10-23-2009, 05:06 PM Why are you going back to draft picks? This position has nothing to do with player personnel. This is about someone who could build an organization up from the front office (which is where it NEEDS improvement) and those guys that are hired are the ones who build the team. Gibbs never owned a racing team in his life. He built the team and the team won championships. Why would you think he could not do this with football, a sport that he has been successful with as a coach?
If we're comparing apples to apples, how else can I compare Vinny and Gibbs? I'm looking at the respective roster moves they are/were responsible for. And to completely frank here, I'm not sure who was responsible for drafting whom during Gibbs' second stint. I know Gibbs drafted Taylor, but Vinny may have liked him too.
Joe Gibbs is a great person and possesses certain qualities that are rare and valued in a leader. And yes he built a great racing organization, but his success here in Washington was because he had capable and intelligent men around him from top to bottom.
If we're comparing apples to apples, how else can I compare Vinny and Gibbs? I'm looking at the respective roster moves they are/were responsible for. And to completely frank here, I'm not sure who was responsible for drafting whom during Gibbs' second stint. I know Gibbs drafted Taylor, but Vinny may have liked him too.
Joe Gibbs is a great person and possesses certain qualities that are rare and valued in a leader. And yes he built a great racing organization, but his success here in Washington was because he had capable nd intelligent men around him from top to bottom.
You seem to be discounting rather heavily the achievments of Joe like the the three Lombardies......
Rather average? Sort of like you or I could have done it in similar situations?
FRPLG 10-23-2009, 05:14 PM Again, I don't think Gibbs will come back when all is said and done but I think he could be an asset. He does have that ability to influence up close and personal, but he also is a skilled CEO who knows how to step up and properly delegate and reward.
Exactly...and this is what we need. A culture change. Forget the who's and the how's. We need a culture change in the FO of this org. To me Gibbs seems like the perfect guy for that. Almost without fail the people he brings in as football guys are good in terms of football and just plain management style. I would argue our product on the field when Gibbs was here the second time was not reflective of the better culture he worked to build. Given the opportunity to step back from coaching and personnel he might be able to actually effect some permanent change to the FO instead on the temporary we had while he was here.
skinsguy 10-23-2009, 05:16 PM If we're comparing apples to apples, how else can I compare Vinny and Gibbs? I'm looking at the respective roster moves they are/were responsible for. And to completely frank here, I'm not sure who was responsible for drafting whom during Gibbs' second stint. I know Gibbs drafted Taylor, but Vinny may have liked him too.
Joe Gibbs is a great person and possesses certain qualities that are rare and valued in a leader. And yes he built a great racing organization, but his success here in Washington was because he had capable and intelligent men around him from top to bottom.
Exactly why we need someone like Joe Gibbs or someone who has the respect that Gibbs carries in Washington so that we can hire those capable and intelligent men from top to bottom. Look at the process that the Redskins franchise went through in finding a head coach before last season: Who the heck hires all the coordinators before the head coach? Only to wind up promoting one of those coordinators to head coach because Snyder and company drew the process out so long? I don't see that as being intelligent or capable of building a great franchise. I understand being careful and not just hiring the first guy that comes through the doors with a resume, but geez, how many of the playoff/elite teams went through that same process to hire their GMs and coaches? What we have right now is broken. Gibbs does have CEO knowledge and football knowledge. Dan Snyder went bankrupt with six flags for pete's sake! Gibbs certainly isn't the only choice, but I would trust someone like him over Vinny.
FRPLG 10-23-2009, 05:18 PM Seems like the problem was that all the potential options (after Schwartz pulled his name) were very flawed.
Snyder had good options, but he took a very long time in the process, losing some of the better names while waiting for different names.
Sadly, the same indecisiveness may have cost us a chance to salvage the season. The Detroit loss was bad, but we followed it up with a disappointing 1-2, which could have been 3-0 if we had taken a different organizational approach and gave Zorn the vote of confidence when it was appropriate.
Would it have mattered if we were 4-2, but go out this week and lose to the Eagles because they are a better team? I don't think so. This is not a good enough team to make the playoffs. But management really, really made this a bigger mess by waiting. Again.
I agree. And it's why I have lost confidence in DS finally. He just can't make good football decisions. Maybe he is TOO CLOSE emotionally to the Redskins. He tried to be patient for whatever reason. Be it image-related or simply that he thought Zorn just needed time. Either way it was a bad decision. One in a long line of them. I don't lack confidence that DS wants to win more than anything. I doubt his ability to make the right decisions to do so. Wanting and doing are very different things.
GTripp0012 10-23-2009, 05:23 PM I agree. And it's why I have lost confidence in DS finally. He just can't make good football decisions. Maybe he is TOO CLOSE emotionally to the Redskins. He tried to be patient for whatever reason. Be it image-related or simply that he thought Zorn just needed time. Either way it was a bad decision. One in a long line of them. I don't lack confidence that DS wants to win more than anything. I doubt his ability to make the right decisions to do so. Wanting and doing are very different things.Agreed. I have two opposing thought processes off of this:
#1) The franchise is screwed because the only thing Snyder fears more than another decade of losing is that someone else gets credit for fixing the team
#2) The franchise is not screwed because they've done relatively well in the draft, and some chair shifting of the off-season sort can get them back on the winning track.
Of course, the million dollar question is not "can this team be fixed?" its "who can fix this team?"
12thMan 10-23-2009, 05:24 PM I agree. And it's why I have lost confidence in DS finally. He just can't make good football decisions. Maybe he is TOO CLOSE emotionally to the Redskins. He tried to be patient for whatever reason. Be it image-related or simply that he thought Zorn just needed time. Either way it was a bad decision. One in a long line of them. I don't lack confidence that DS wants to win more than anything. I doubt his ability to make the right decisions to do so. Wanting and doing are very different things.
On that same note, I also don't think him selling the team is the solution either. But if Snyder is still in the picture, I'm still not sure how much Gibbs can affect the culture.
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