6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky

Yeah I have a hard time calling any war a win, especially this one. What happened to Mission Accomplished anyway?

http://www.yougotstyle.org/archives/images/mission-accomplished.jpg

Win? How about we start choosing our words more carefully?

I am content with my word. Simply put DMek said "can't we move on", which I replied "... call it a win..." . I did not say we did win as in a done deal, simply that if we are going to move on, then let's put the W in Bush's column since it was his plan/strategy that brought us to this point, and now at most it is like a 3rd string qb coming in to finish out the last 2 minutes in a game that is over, as opposed to a Save in baseball.
I tell you what again, let's give Bush the W in Iraq, and a No decision if Afghanistan, and if Obama gets Afghanistan under control he gets the Save.
But, and this is just what I believe, those who want to "just move on" now, will be the first to use a revisionist schtick in a year and a half, to proclaim Bush had failed and the war was won through Obama's presidency. And that just isn't the case.

-if you know me, i have a belief that both political parties spin fiction to reduce their liabilities. and i know that bush haters will not give him credit on anything (i don't give him credit on much), but the fact is that iraq is going to be a "win", and it was Bush's strategy that will have won it.

Yeah I have a hard time calling any war a win, especially this one. What happened to Mission Accomplished anyway?

So the American Revolutionary War, was not a win?

World War II, not a win?

Sadly this war will probably be more of a WWI style win, because America, as is normal, is going to cut out before true stability takes place. The current government most likely will parallel the Weimar Republic, with a fanatical sect coming back into power once america backs out of the country, similar to the league of nations once america refused to join. It cost us around 4,000 good men and women, plus the 10's of thousands who were injured, and instead of honoring their sacrifices many mock Bush by asking "what happened to mission accomplished". Bush politicized that statement so he mocked it as well. But the sailors on that ship, had accomplished their mission, and our troops on the ground over there have toiled long and hard to make iraq a country where every sect can come to the political discussion without their wives and children being gassed or killed, so yes that is a win. In the noblest sense of American military(regardless of political mumbo jumbo) our soldiers gave their lives so that people in another part of the world could be free from tyranny, yes that is a win.

So the American Revolutionary War, was not a win?

World War II, not a win?

Sadly this war will probably be more of a WWI style win, because America, as is normal, is going to cut out before true stability takes place. The current government most likely will parallel the Weimar Republic, with a fanatical sect coming back into power once america backs out of the country, similar to the league of nations once america refused to join. It cost us around 4,000 good men and women, plus the 10's of thousands who were injured, and instead of honoring their sacrifices many mock Bush by asking "what happened to mission accomplished". Bush politicized that statement so he mocked it as well. But the sailors on that ship, had accomplished their mission, and our troops on the ground over there have toiled long and hard to make iraq a country where every sect can come to the political discussion without their wives and children being gassed or killed, so yes that is a win. In the noblest sense of American military(regardless of political mumbo jumbo) our soldiers gave their lives so that people in another part of the world could be free from tyranny, yes that is a win.

I wonder if the dead soldiers' families consider it a "win" ??

I wonder if the dead soldiers' families consider it a "win" ??
I served 5 years my friend, in the early 90's; if I had given my life, my family would have considered it a personal loss, but they would have known i joined with open eyes, and would have been proud of my contribution. No one forced me to join, and when i swore my oath, i did not say "but if i die it is a loss" I did not want to die, i did not even want to go to bosnia (and thankfully didn't, my unit left 1 month after i pcs'd to the states) but it was my duty, and one i would have done if called upon. to ask that question demeans our soldiers and their families. No one person will consider a lost life a win in any situation. If a man goes to jail, his family will consider it a loss, but if it upholds our country's laws it may very well have been a win. No one family, when focused on their child/sibling/parent will consider a death a win, but they may see the it as a part of a greater truth, and gain strength and peace in that vision.

My friend, every loss is tragic, 9-11 was tragic, the kurds who were tossed in the mass graves were tragic, our soldiers sacrifice is tragic, but if in the end a government is formed that prevents any more mass grave, allows free participation in the political process, and provides for stability in the region then our families will look on their personal tragedy with a belief that it was not in vain.

I served 5 years my friend, in the early 90's; if I had given my life, my family would have considered it a personal loss, but they would have known i joined with open eyes, and would have been proud of my contribution. No one forced me to join, and when i swore my oath, i did not say "but if i die it is a loss" I did not want to die, i did not even want to go to bosnia (and thankfully didn't, my unit left 1 month after i pcs'd to the states) but it was my duty, and one i would have done if called upon. to ask that question demeans our soldiers and their families. No one person will consider a lost life a win in any situation. If a man goes to jail, his family will consider it a loss, but if it upholds our country's laws it may very well have been a win. No one family, when focused on their child/sibling/parent will consider a death a win, but they may see the it as a part of a greater truth, and gain strength and peace in that vision.

My friend, every loss is tragic, 9-11 was tragic, the kurds who were tossed in the mass graves were tragic, our soldiers sacrifice is tragic, but if in the end a government is formed that prevents any more mass grave, allows free participation in the political process, and provides for stability in the region then our families will look on their personal tragedy with a belief that it was not in vain.



very good post.

With respect to Iraq I'd love to see you add up your wins and losses.

Edit: I'd like to focus on Iraq.

Have you ever wondered what one trillion dollars looks like? (http://deliveriesgalore.com/2009/03/18/one-trillion-dollars/)

That pic/diagram is pretty mind-blowing IMO...

While the current cost may sit around $1 trillion there's two larger points: 1) the ultimate cost, which factors in long-term veteran care costs and other things, at least according the the Nobel prize holder Stiglitz, will cost well over $3 trillion (The Iraq War Will Cost Us $3 Trillion, and Much More (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846_pf.html)) 2) the opportunity cost is literally unfathomable and even under the best case scenario for Iraq I think it's very hard for an honest person to argue that is worth more than the betterment we could have seen domestically (i'm totally w/ Pat Buchanan on this one)

But i think more importantly people should realize Bush did little to nothing to turn things around in Iraq. The tide turned w/ the surge strategy of "clear, hold and build," which was devised by Gen. Jack Keane and implemented within state dept., almost in clandestine fashion, by Condi Rice. Rummy pushed hard against the idea initially and it was only Condi's somewhat devious tactics that got the strategy on the ground. Bush had little to do w/ that; however, as i think is totally expected of the conservative base a women, let alone a minority, was never going to get the credit.

FRONTLINE: endgame: watch online | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/endgame/view/)

With respect to Iraq I'd love to see you add up your wins and losses.

Edit: I'd like to focus on Iraq.

I really don't understand the question. Again, my point started in relation to the statement "can't we move on", if we are able to move on, and leave iraq be, certainly it would be a win, meaning no more major loss of life, troops eventually come home, etc etc. The fact is that iraq was a major negative day in and day out when bush was in office, and now suddenly we just move on?
(i am not asking for a glowing endorsement of a war, or that it was a perfectly run war - to keep with the sports analogy of earlier- maybe it was a 7 - 6 win and you hate the team that won, but they won. )

... Bush had little to do w/ that; however, as i think is totally expected of the conservative base a women, let alone a minority, was never going to get the credit.

FRONTLINE: endgame: watch online | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/endgame/view/)
and as is to be expected by the vilify bush crowd - bush will never get credit. bush brought in condi, she was a close advisor to him, that he followed her advise is not a surprise nor even unexpected. it is a fallacy to portray her advice as uncredited, regardless of race or gender.