Marching Orders... Interesting Points

I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.

The part that would make any Skins rebuilding process more painful and decrease fan patience is that the Skins havent really had any success that they are rebuilding from. It seems like they have been in a rebuilding mode since the mid 1990s by always trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

Personally I haven't heard any SB talk since prior to the 2006 season.

There's no such thing as rebuilding anymore. In this league you can go from worst to first in one year.

This team doesn't need to blow it all up and start over. Besides, that's not even possible with the cap. What they do need to do is shed as much of the excess as they can this offseason and continue to lean on the draft instead of free agency.

I'm curious about this...whether or not fans can put up with rebuilding...or the ownership. I posted something related to this in another thread, when someone brought up the Ravens, Dolphins, and Atlanta. I mentioned that all of those team had losing seasons while rebuilding, and actually acquired some good players through high draft picks they got due to those losing seasons.

I think the fanbase is too impatient. I laugh when people mention the cliche "build through the draft" as an option instead of signing a free agent. i'm not sure these people know that building through the draft typically means getting a lot of young players and not winning many games while they develop. I know this doesn't happen ALL the time, but if you rebuild, you have to be ready to face a losing season.

I agree with you that if we re-build, in the short team we will lose more than we are now. But you talk like we have been consistantly a winning team. We have not. In the last 16 years we have not had a single season that we have won more than 10 games. In the last 16 years we have only had 5 seasons that we have been over .500.
Take a look below, we have not been a winning team.

1993 4 - 12
1994 3 - 13
1995 6 - 10
1996 9 - 7
1997 8 - 7 - 1
1998 6 - 10
1999 10- 6
2000 8 - 8
2001 8 - 8
2002 7 - 9
2003 5 - 11
2004 6 - 10
2005 10 - 6
2006 5 - 11
2007 9 - 7
2008 8 - 8

Nice post. Very nice.

So is this thread! Very nice! I actually tried to post in the News Article forum first thing yesterday because I found it to be so insightful. Readers, do not try to post in the news article!

I hope we do go with OL/DL or vice-versa, but I hope we trade down in order to accumulate more picks. It would be nice to have those three Number #2s............

^ I think it goes back to how you package what your selling. Every year Snyder/Cerrato come out and say "We almost made it, just a couple of new toys and hopefully we get to the SB." We change coach's every 2-5 yrs and still go nowhere. Always the same thing....."We just need to fill a few spots and SB here we come." Guess what .....none of the coach's have been able to package a decent SB run. Not even our beloved Gibbs.

I would like to think if and I mean if the team ever said " We are in rebuilding mode" everyones high expectations would diminish and we would expect mediocracy until a decent team is fielded. I hate the fact that every year team officials say we are so close when we are really not. We have over the hill linemen on both sides of the ball which is partially Gibbs fault cause he always liked the older players that did not make mental mistakes at the line. Remember the...."Over the hill gang."

Is there anything wrong with a team saying to all college prospects that did not get picked in the draft ..."Hey we need linemen on both sides of the ball and if you want a job come to our tryouts." or are they limited as to how many they can have show up?

I'd to an all call for linemen and WR's and CB's. Come one come all. let us evaluate you.

Well that was my question, whether the fans would be patient about this. I mean during the 6-2 start, people's expectations went through the roof despite the fact that we were barely winning games and lost to the Rams. Yes winning cures everything, but people did not see the problems that would eventually lead to 2-6 in the second half of the season. I'm not sure the if the FO has come out and said that we're making a run to the SB. I know when Saunders was brought in, the team and the players set their expectations really high and were talking about the Superbowl. Of course they fell flat on their face and finished with a losing record. I think ever since that season the team has been cautious about expectations, and honestly everyone but Redskins fans expected an 8-8 or less out Zorn.

I think you make a very good point in regards to how Gibbs decision to go with older players is affecting us now. People talk about how we traded picks, did not build through the draft, and went after flashy FAs. Well I think the age factor has to do with the decisions that Gibbs made in working with only old players. Instead of working with a young Patrick Ramsey, he opted to bring in Brunell. I don't think Gibbs was the "let's build through draft" type of coach. And now we're stuck with old players that get hurt all the time, don't contribute much, but cost the team a lot of $$ (and will cost more $$ if they are cut).

Well that was my question, whether the fans would be patient about this. I mean during the 6-2 start, people's expectations went through the roof despite the fact that we were barely winning games and lost to the Rams. Yes winning cures everything, but people did not see the problems that would eventually lead to 2-6 in the second half of the season. I'm not sure the if the FO has come out and said that we're making a run to the SB. I know when Saunders was brought in, the team and the players set their expectations really high and were talking about the Superbowl. Of course they fell flat on their face and finished with a losing record. I think ever since that season the team has been cautious about expectations, and honestly everyone but Redskins fans expected an 8-8 or less out Zorn.

I think you make a very good point in regards to how Gibbs decision to go with older players is affecting us now. People talk about how we traded picks, did not build through the draft, and went after flashy FAs. Well I think the age factor has to do with the decisions that Gibbs made in working with only old players. Instead of working with a young Patrick Ramsey, he opted to bring in Brunell. I don't think Gibbs was the "let's build through draft" type of coach. And now we're stuck with old players that get hurt all the time, don't contribute much, but cost the team a lot of $$ (and will cost more $$ if they are cut).

I think there is enough blame to go around. I do not think you can blame one person. Gibbs did not spend a 2nd round pick for a 34 y.o. DE.
Gibbs did not get only one starter out of an entire 2008 draft class.
There are too many cooks in the kitchen already, you can not tell who gets the final say anyway.
We need a strong qualified leader on the FO. We do not have one. We have two partners.

I agree with you that if we re-build, in the short team we will lose more than we are now. But you talk like we have been consistantly a winning team. We have not. In the last 16 years we have not had a single season that we have won more than 10 games. In the last 16 years we have only had 5 seasons that we have been over .500.
Take a look below, we have not been a winning team.

2000 8 - 8
2001 8 - 8
2002 7 - 9
2003 5 - 11
2004 6 - 10
2005 10 - 6
2006 5 - 11
2007 9 - 7
2008 8 - 8

Well when I talked about rebuilding I was thinking more about the team since 2004 when Gibbs came back. Although since 2000, we've only had four losing seasons, three .500, and only two winning seasons. We have been sort stuck in a mediocre middle.

When Gibbs was brought in 2004, he was expected to win right away, and as I mentioned, Gibbs was not the type to develop young players. Since 2005 we've seen moderate success, but not enough to get the team to the next level. Honestly, last offseason there should have been a sense of rebuilding after Gibbs left. If we want to start rebuilding this year, the question is whether the fans or the team would allow Zorn to have another 8-8 or worst year.

Best offseason thread in a long time. thanks to all that have posted.

Here are my thoughts/observations for what it's worth:

1) While I don't want to get into a "this is how you build a team, look at them.." debate, I think JLC's article & his constant hammering of a few facts is well taken. Football starts in the trenches. If your lines suck you'd better have exceptional people behind them. Our DBs were a case in point on the positive side this year, while our O was on the negative.

It's really quite simple, and anyone who's listened to coaches over the years knows that if you're lacking in the trenches it will catch up to you.

2) As already noted, a bigger problem is the LACK of draft picks, which I think JLC should note as much as the lack of linemen. Draft picks have not been valued by this team, and despite talk to the contrary, the J. Taylor trade shows that (I thought it was a good idea, but a 2nd is very high, not to mention a 6th too).

3) Gibbs had never coached in the era of cap & undrafted free agency till he came back in 04 & I think he overestimated the value of older players v. the impact on the cap long-term. Still, he got the ship on course IMO & drafted a future QB (Not to mention gave us something to get excited about).

4) I said it last year & someone else pointed it out earlier when they cited Kiper's statement about not doing it all in one year; maybe Vinny does have a strategy: 1) draft wr's who normally take a few years to develop, then 2) draft o linemen who can play right away, 3) draft defensive players as needed. In the meantime, sign FAs to plug some holes.

Following this, in 2010 Thomas, Kelly & Davis might be solid playmakers, we'll have a few new faces on the O line, & the D will be younger. The logic in last year's draft is that the wr's would take a couple years at least, thus getting them to produce when JC and the rest of the O starts to gell. Defensively, more high picks have been used on that side of the ball over the past 5 years, so the approach there might be less systematic.

JLC really irked me with his post. Drafting linemen isnt enough-- you have to draft GOOD linemen. JLC cited a few playoff teams and tried to correlate their success with the fact that they drafted linemen high 2-3 times as often as us...

what JLC forgot to mention is that teams that are consistently bad have also drafted 2-3 tims as many linemen as us.

The teams that have been continuously successful nearly every year (New England, Philly, Indy, and Pittsburg) all have 3 things in common:

1) For the most part, they keep their draft picks and they draft well. Most of the time, if they trade a draft pick, its to acquire more draft picks... not a vet player over 28.
2) They rarely make a big splash in free agency and DRAFT WELL. It doesnt matter what position they draft (as JLC implies), its that they use their picks wisely. Players taken in rounds 1-4 generally start or play substantially in their first year. Players taken in later rounds contribute on special teams.
3) They have great quarterbacks and great coaches and keep the same system in tact for years. Just keeping any system in tact is not good enough. it has to be a good system. Same goes for a QB.

We are no where near being in a position to follow in the footsteps of teams like new england, philly, indy, etc. If Vinny uses the next two drafts to focus primarily on the lines, its not going to make this team any better, in the same way it hasnt made detroit any better for two reasons:

1) We don't have a GM who is talented enough to draft quality players, find a franchise quarterback, and select quality coaches.

2) Because our GM is not competent enough to make the correct decisions mentioned above, our owner is not going to be patient enough to stick with any one thing. our owner deludes himself in thinking that things will really get better every 2-4 years with a new man in charge.

We are the oldest team in the NFl and we have one of the highest payrolls. We have to stop bringing in old FA's. We have to stop renegotiating contracts of old players just to get below the cap, get rid of the old over paid players. Stop trading high draft picks for 34 year old FA's. But we always revert back to these bad practices because it is less painful. We build this team to win today, not to win for tomorrow.Both Baltimore and Tennessee had painful rebuilding years after their Super Bowl appearances in 2000 and 1999, respectively. I would rather suffer through a 3 win season if it meant clearing the books of overpaid vets, while laying a strong young foundation with an extended window to compete for a championship. With Snyderato's current formula, the best we can ever hope for is a 9-10 win season that results in a wild card, and an early exit from the post-season. I don't see a long range plan for success when we continually trade draft picks for aging vets, as if we are only a player away from championship caliber. Snyder is delusional in his belief that we are on the cusp of anything great with this formula.