John Glenn quote (warning, some content may incite anger)

I have watched this and can't get over how badly Donald Rumsfeld screwed this country over. It was on Bush's watch and it ultimately lays with him but Rumsfeld was the architect of this disaster.

Agreed, though I think Cheney was always there to back up Rummy in crucial debates and disagreements. As for Bush, my impression is that he just didn't have the force of will to disagree with these guys and his desire for strong action (not always, or even often) a bad thing, meant that he was most receptive to their views, especially in contrast with Powell's "you break it you buy it coalition approach).

But Rummy screwed up, no doubt. It's amazing how time and time again he's behind the missteps.

I;m told by my buddy at the NY Times that Rummy is one of the most charming and interesting (and funny) guys you can meet. Doesn't make you a good defense secretary, unfortunately.

i really appreciate this kind of post. I think it says alot about the people that have actually accomplished something in this country vs those who sit back and criticize every move that is made...

there is no 'effective post invasion' plan. Look back throughout history and show me one "invader" that was welcomed with open arms. Each invader thought/felt like they were in the right, either by divine inspiration or simple evolution. Like it or not we are outsiders occupying another country. It's an ugly situation. right or wrong is completely dependent upon perspective. To discredit the progress that has been made in that country without considering the status of basic human rights in that same territory 4 or 5 years ago is naive beyond description. yeah, we all want to sound intelligent. yeah, we all have an opinion. yeah, we all truly have never been in any situation that requires real life world changing decision making so we have no real clue what goes into the progress, despite what we read on the interweb. Everyone's a critic. No one is part of a solution. More hot air is all there is. What a sad state of affairs.

so unless people are making foreign policies or agreeing with the decisions being made they should keep their mouths shut, huh? cool beans. I'm PM'ing you an invite to a local book burning I'd like you to attend ;)

I don't know how you turn the mismanagement of this war into a democrat/republican issue (as if that in any way has a bearing on the inefficacy of its execution) and then substantiate your point by quoting one of the most famous democratic senators of all time. You can't turn it into a partisan issue and then quote the other side.

By the way, if you guys want to watch a stunning Iraq documentary check out No End in Sight. It skips the debate about the legality of the war and starts with the premise that the war could have been very successful, if not for a series of stunning errors by the Bush Team, particularily Rumsfeld and Bremer. It is by far the best film on this topic that I have seen.

i really appreciate this kind of post. I think it says alot about the people that have actually accomplished something in this country vs those who sit back and criticize every move that is made...

there is no 'effective post invasion' plan. Look back throughout history and show me one "invader" that was welcomed with open arms. Each invader thought/felt like they were in the right, either by divine inspiration or simple evolution. Like it or not we are outsiders occupying another country. It's an ugly situation. right or wrong is completely dependent upon perspective. To discredit the progress that has been made in that country without considering the status of basic human rights in that same territory 4 or 5 years ago is naive beyond description. yeah, we all want to sound intelligent. yeah, we all have an opinion. yeah, we all truly have never been in any situation that requires real life world changing decision making so we have no real clue what goes into the progress, despite what we read on the interweb. Everyone's a critic. No one is part of a solution. More hot air is all there is. What a sad state of affairs.
Here's the deal though. We didn't just not have a good plan....we had NO PLAN. Rumsfeld was more worried about consolidating his power, screwing the CIA, and affecting regime change as a means to complete cultural change. What he and his fellow neocons forgot was that winning the war was easy it was getting their idea of flourishing democracy to take hold in the peace that was hard and they had no idea wahat the hell to do to do it.

By the way, if you guys want to watch a stunning Iraq documentary check out No End in Sight. It skips the debate about the legality of the war and starts with the premise that the war could have been very successful, if not for a series of stunning errors by the Bush Team, particularily Rumsfeld and Bremer. It is by far the best film on this topic that I have seen.

I am actually a very firm believer in the fundamental idea behind this war (the real idea about establishing democracies and creating allies...not that crap about WMDs, etc..) and I think it WILL eventually work if we start doing it correctly and have some patience. But Rummy and his ilk f*cked this up. They just did, and it has nothing to do with a failure of their ideas rather than piss poor execution. Even the staunchest of Iraq war supporters have to see how badly this has been executed.

Are we counting the wounded and those that commit suicide after they come back? It's so sad that only the dead get counted and those who are not dead are forgotten. Also, are we counting the dead Iraq civilians too or is that collateral damage and irrelevant?

Your picture is incomplete at best.

For real? The lack of substantive thought behind this thread is disappointing.

For real? The lack of substantive thought behind this thread is disappointing.

In what way? I am not sure I understand.

Here's the deal though. We didn't just not have a good plan....we had NO PLAN. Rumsfeld was more worried about consolidating his power, screwing the CIA, and affecting regime change as a means to complete cultural change. What he and his fellow neocons forgot was that winning the war was easy it was getting their idea of flourishing democracy to take hold in the peace that was hard and they had no idea wahat the hell to do to do it.

First of all, I was in the military during the time and onboard a US Navy Sub in the Red Sea as we shot off part of the salvo that was known as "Shock and Awe" so I'm not "talking out of my ass" on this one. We DID have a plan. Saying otherwise is hyperbole generated by those who are diametrically opposed to everything that this administration has done. I'm not saying it was necessarily a good or particularly effective plan, but there was a plan. We did not go to war at the cost of at least 4,000 american lives for the sake of Rumsfeld consolidating power.

My point is that if anyone, ANYONE, expects an occupying force (that's what we are, no reason to sugar coat it) to be welcomed in with open arms, they are delusional. What I think is very convenient is that before the war was begun, public opinion was in favor of action in Iraq. Then, later, when there were no WMD found, everyone acts like you can go back in time and change everything. We are there, regardless of why, how or when we got there, we are. SO that is the current situation. All of this constant bitching about the past is completely inconsequential.

Was the public misled? Definitely. Do they have a right to be pissed off? Yes. Does that have ANYTHING to do with the current situation? Not at all.

I'm not going to write too much more because this is fast approaching incoherent territory but... For better or for worse, we are there. The only plausible course of action is to finish what we came to do. Doing otherwise will send a very harmful signal to the enemy that if they plant enough IED's and blow up enough marketplaces, the US will not have the stomach to endure a drawn out conflict. It will invite more and more of this type of tactic being utilized anywhere we are in that region. It's human nature, find a weakness and exploit it.

People spend a hell of a lot time complaining and examining when what we as a country and unified government need to do is use all necessary force to finish this war in Iraq. AFTER that is accomplished, then we can investigate and make changes in policy so that we don't find ourselves in future situations like this one. But this nationwide backseat driving is completely counter-productive.

Anyone that presumes to know the innerworkings of the cabinet that decided action on this war either is delusional, believes everything they see on CNN and read in the NY Times or both.