Joyner: Cooley underrated

Look at what Gates has done so far in his career:

265 catches, 3378 yards, 12.7 avg, 34 TDs.

As for Winslow:

94 catches, 925 yards, 9.8 avg, 3 TDs.

So why would I think Winslow is better than Gates??

I can't wait to hear this logic.Product of offense? Maybe? Possibly?

All you've done is shown that Gates has been given a lot more oppertunities in his career. This would be a stupid point to debate anyway.

I think that given identital oppertunites that Winslow would produce a bit more than Gates. I also happen to think Winslow is the better blocker which is half of a TE's game anyway.

Even if I'm wrong, I don't see how in the world you could think its absured. Why have a discussion fourm if only conventional logic can be right?

We can't discuss TEs and not look at blocking first. We just can't.

It means that someone who does what he does, which is catch anywhere from 50 -70 balls and scores 5-7 times is replaceable. In other words you could find someone in the draft or in free agency to get that type of production. Yes it's tough to find but it's not like it's impossible.

I didn't say all of those guys were better. Some of them are better than Cooley. I said they had equal skills or better skills.Replaceable implies that its not all that hard to find. I mean, some very good players can be replaceable, but only at positions in which such skills are quite common for the league.

Well i just ran across this article on NFL.com and its the top 100 fantasy players (I know its only for fantasy but its also a ranking of top players at theri positions and this guy ranked Cooley as the #6 TE overall)

NFL.com - NFL Fantasy (http://www.nfl.com/fantasy/story/10224491)

My judgment is reserved until I see that Winslow can do it again. Smith is solid, but again he's not great like Cooley. And Clark gets the balls he gets BECAUSE of the offense he's in. Any other team makes him less than good.Both you and Skinsfan69 have good points on Winslow. I don't know exactly how good he is, but theres no reason to think that he isn't going to be one of the best TEs in the league.

Well i just ran across this article on NFL.com and its the top 100 fantasy players (I know its only for fantasy but its also a ranking of top players at theri positions and this guy ranked Cooley as the #6 TE overall)

NFL.com - NFL Fantasy (http://www.nfl.com/fantasy/story/10224491)Chris Cooley is a very good fantasy TE.

That said, when trying to pick fantasy receivers and TEs, the ONLY guys you want to grab are the ones who are going to get the most passes thrown at them. Everything else is unimportant.

So this rankings list is just as solid as anyone elses, because we all know Cooley is going to get looks, its just a matter of whether or not he gets more looks than every other TE in the league.

Product of offense? Maybe? Possibly?

All you've done is shown that Gates has been given a lot more oppertunities in his career. This would be a stupid point to debate anyway.

I think that given identital oppertunites that Winslow would produce a bit more than Gates. I also happen to think Winslow is the better blocker which is half of a TE's game anyway.

Even if I'm wrong, I don't see how in the world you could think its absured. Why have a discussion fourm if only conventional logic can be right?

We can't discuss TEs and not look at blocking first. We just can't.

What I've shown is Gates has been a very productive TE in this league for several seasons, and Winslow has a long way to go before he is in the same class of Gates.

It's your personal opinon that Winslow is better, that's fine but I just thought maybe you had something more solid to back up your take with.

What I've shown is Gates has been a very productive TE in this league for several seasons, and Winslow has a long way to go before he is in the same class of Gates.

It's your personal opinon that Winslow is better, that's fine but I just thought maybe you had something more solid to back up your take with.Well, then by the same standard, wouldn't Desmond Clark be better than Chris Cooley?

Yes, Gates has been very productive from several seasons, and good for him, but based on what the Chargers have tried to do on offense these last few years, I don't think Gates has been better than what we should have expected from the position and team. Winslow, I believe, has been better than what we expected from the position and team, albeit in very limited time.

Thats my case.

It cracks me up how, sometimes, it takes 40 or 50 posts before someone's arguments finally devolve into " 'cause I said so" - even though that was obvious to everyone else at the beginning.

Product of offense? Maybe? Possibly?

All you've done is shown that Gates has been given a lot more oppertunities in his career. This would be a stupid point to debate anyway.

I think that given identital oppertunites that Winslow would produce a bit more than Gates. I also happen to think Winslow is the better blocker which is half of a TE's game anyway.

Even if I'm wrong, I don't see how in the world you could think its absured. Why have a discussion fourm if only conventional logic can be right?

We can't discuss TEs and not look at blocking first. We just can't.

Evaluating a TE based primarily on blocking skills is kind of conventional isn't it? But why evaluate TEs only by conventional thinking? Maybe the position has evolved.

In the words of Doc Brown, "You're not thinking 4th dimensionally"

Okay now you are on crack ...

One of my favorite Cowboys players has to be Witten.. he is a chain mover as is Cooley . I actually don't rate Gates that much, he is amongst the best in the leauge but he is esentially a converted basket ball player with limited moves, speed and has questionable blocking skills . What SD do well with him is ask him to go out there and esentially go for the jump balls .

You have the great TE's in history like Mike Ditka etc but they are often overlooked . In the Dallas reign of terror 92-96 I think the most valuble offensive players they had were in order, Aikmen, Smith, Novacheck, Allen, Irvin .

When I think of great TEs right now i like Ben Watson in NE, Dallas Clark as fantasy stud last year on my team, Jason Witten, Chris Cooley, Tony G - but only as a pass catcher, he is not the best blocker in the world, Vernon Davis - was ripping it up before his injury, and Kelen Winslow .

I also think the eara of the great TE is still to come but if you have a top flight all round skills like Cooley you do not let him walk because you simply cannot go out and replace them. It is a undervalued possition in the collages and NFL, often spare tackles who can catch get stuck on the end as a TE.

:doh:........