A Misconception that should be rooted out

Crazyhorse,But, why is it that many people who have a burning hatred of Bush also seem to belittle our country and think very poorly of the average American (whose interests liberals purportedly advance)? .

It's not just American Liberals it's the rest of the developed world too.

I believe that the world today is seriously threatened by religious fundamentalism, including our own. We fool ourselves when we choose to think that Bush alone caused the war; the war was at bottom caused by fundamentals in the Arab world reacting to American hegemony (a form of violence) with violence (911) and then an irrational counter action by a fundamentalist president put into office by fundamentalists. We've undergone a death of reason and given way to primative fears and hatreds.
We are now torturing people, committing war crimes, limiting American freedoms, flaunting religious and racial hated, and justifying violations of a Constitution that once gave light and hope to the world.
We are not a good country. We are a country that is really screwing up, and are currently rated as less trustworthy than China and dumber than dirt. Instead of reason, diplomacy, and science, we embrace fairy tales of devils and demons. We abandon diplomacy as well as the scientific method and look around for sticks to sharpen. This war would not have happened without the aid of neocons, big money, and the religious right working hand in glove. May they all be defanged, the sooner the better.
You, your kind and what you stand for are the only thing wrong with this country. You're an embarassment and the crazziness couched in some sort of irrational logic act hurts this country

For someone, seemingly, so intelligent you are incredibly narrow minded and short sighted. But I have a feeling you like to engage in this type of discussion; One that engenders strife and division, not harmony and unity.

Hmmm....is it possible that you yourself are guilty of the same extreme, self-righteous behavior that you accuse our government of?

It's not just American Liberals it's the rest of the developed world too.

So, the rest of the world hates us for our arrogance and mocks us for thinking we can tell others what type of government to set up, and then tells us who we should and should not elect as our President and whether our politics are "bad"?

A map of the earth........$19.99
A world globe...............$89.99
A trip around the world..$9,500.39
Incredibly hypocritical and ironic statements from people around the world.....priceless.

So, the rest of the world hates us for our arrogance and mocks us for thinking we can tell others what type of government to set up, and then tells us who we should and should not elect as our President and whether our politics are "bad"?

A map of the earth........$19.99
A world globe...............$89.99
A trip around the world..$9,500.39
Incredibly hypocritical and ironic statements from people around the world.....priceless.

I'm just saying that amongst the world's richest countries we are pretty much alone in our religiosity, and that people find that comical. The rest of the world doesn't hate us. They love many things about America; however, they also laugh at our backwoods religious fervor, our obesity, and our penchant for firearms.

You can pick your country, with a few choice exceptions religion has been abandoned as something pre-modern. Here where I live 75 percent of the country is atheist, and those who aren't tend to be older. I have never once met a religious young person, and I meet lots and lots of young people. Now you can argue about whether or not this is a good thing, whether America is god's country or not, whether or not the rest of the world is going to hell, but what you can't argue with is the fact that we are increasingly the only religious rich country left, Israel and maybe Ireland notwithstanding.

You, your kind and what you stand for are the only thing wrong with this country. You're an embarassment and the crazziness couched in some sort of irrational logic act hurts this country

Am I the only one who feels this is out of line?

Djnemo brings up a good point. Let's try to keep this debate civil. I strongly disagree with, but respect, crazyhorse.

I'm just saying that amongst the world's richest countries we are pretty much alone in our religiosity, and that people find that comical. The rest of the world doesn't hate us. They love many things about America; however, they also laugh at our backwoods religious fervor, our obesity, and our penchant for firearms.

You can pick your country, with a few choice exceptions religion has been abandoned as something pre-modern. Here where I live 75 percent of the country is atheist, and those who aren't tend to be older. I have never once met a religious young person, and I meet lots and lots of young people. Now you can argue about whether or not this is a good thing, whether America is god's country or not, whether or not the rest of the world is going to hell, but what you can't argue with is the fact that we are increasingly the only religious rich country left, Israel and maybe Ireland notwithstanding.

You make good points and I do not care for the harcore religious right, but I still see hypocrisy in that view of America. Again, many people abroad bash us for our narrow-mindedness, inability to understand foreign cultures, and belief that anything that is not inherently American is not any good. I don't see how they can bash us for our arrogance and simultaneously bash us for our culture (which includes religion).

Something tells me that many of the people who bash America for its religiosity think the Dalai Lama (sp?) is great, believe we must respect Islam, and think that poor countries should preserve their cultural identities in the face of free trade and global integration. I find that interesting.

You make good points and I do not care for the harcore religious right, but I still see hypocrisy in that view of America. Again, many people abroad bash us for our narrow-mindedness, inability to understand foreign cultures, and belief that anything that is not inherently American is not any good. I don't see how they can bash us for our arrogance and simultaneously bash us for our culture (which includes religion).

Something tells me that many of the people who bash America for its religiosity think the Dalai Lama (sp?) is great, believe we must respect Islam, and think that poor countries should preserve their cultural identities in the face of free trade and global integration. I find that interesting.

SGG, I think you are incorrectly conflating American liberals with people overseas. What you are describing is your average University of Pennsylvania English major. The animus towards religion - all religion - runs deeper than you realize, and no religion is more reviled than Islam, particularly in Europe where religious inspired terrorism looms over daily life the same way it does in the States. Moreover, the kind of liberal political correctness you allude to is largely an American phenomenon.

Living overseas has taught me that America means a lot less to people than we as Americans think. At the end of the day we are just another country. The rest of the world is not obsessed with us. When we step on people's toes, as Tony Soprano would say, they might get upset. When we release an interesting movie they go see it. They like some things and dislike others, but at the end of the day they have to put food on the table, and America has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that America is going one way religiously while our first world contemporaries are going another.

Hmmm... and I thought this was going to be a debate over the nature of scientific theories, the role of experiment and simplicity in the defense of a materialist ontology, etc. You know, fun stuff!

But as a liberal who voted against Bush, I find this whole line of debate unproductive. Crazyhorse, this debate is just the one that Karl Rove wants you to be having. So long as it's atheist liberals against religious conservatives, we are playing the wrong game. Stalinist Russia was largely atheist, and even the most ardent liberal no longer supports that "enlightened" regime. And many great liberal thinkers have been religious--Locke, John Adams, Lincoln. It's a red herring.

The reason that many Americans do not believe in evolution is that it is tied up with a North-South post-Civil war split. Evolution was widely seen as a Northern cultural invasion, and it is wrapped up with that, and with the rise of pentecostal fundamentalism that has swept this country since the late 50's (Billy Graham) and beyond to today. The Scopes trial was not about science; it was about politics and culture.

Criticize Bush by criticizing his policies--Iraq, Stem cells, the trade gap, the budget deficit, the lack of affordable health care, the suspension of Habeas Corpus and the gutting of our basic constitutional protections, Alberto Gonzales, Scooter Libby, etc., etc., etc.

Bringing in evolution is like bringing in gay marriage--it rallies social conservatives and clouds the issues: Liberals= anti-God. That is a debate better left to liberal arts classes in college. To the extent that it gets brought into today's current debate, Karl Rove is pleased. And that is very displeasing to me.

(PS Criticizing Bush does not equal criticizing the USA as the greatest nation on Earth--in fact, being able to criticize Bush is WHY this is the greatest nation on earth. That, and the other rights guaranteed by the constitution, if Bush stops taking a scissors to it!)