Is Russell really better than Quinn?

Do you think Russell is not good, or just overrated? I think he is pretty good but just overrated this draft because of his arm strength and size.Well, I think the designation of good depends on expectation, and I don't think you can seperate one from another.

I think, based on his college production, that Russell will have a very similar career path to Rex Grossman.

And Grossman is a much better player than the media would have you think. He also lost two years due to injury to set his career back, so Russell will probably be better than that.

But I don't know too many teams who would spend a first rounder if they knew that this was what they were getting.

It's good value for the bottom of the round, and taking Russell to be your QB is better than trying to stick an unknown in there instead (That's to say the Ravens would be smarter to take Russell at 29 to fill a need as opposed to trying to get the QB of the future in the 4th round--because thats just a crapshoot). But he's not going to improve a bad franchise with his early career play.

Russell can have success if you give him a running game and a defense. He's not going to be completely inept. But hes simply not a good prospect, and making him the No. 1 pick (or even a top 10 pick) means he will be wearing the bust label by 2010.

If you are looking for front offices worst than the Skins, I would also contend Detroit is up there to with Oakland.Yeah, well, taking one top 10 receiver is questionable the way WRs are being graded by scouts. Taking more than one is inexcusable. I could not support a team that took 3 in consecutive years, espically with all the red flags around Mike Williams.

Yeah, well, taking one top 10 receiver is questionable the way WRs are being graded by scouts. Taking more than one is inexcusable. I could not support a team that took 3 in consecutive years, espically with all the red flags around Mike Williams.

Well you know my feelings about CJ this draft, although I agree that drafting WRs in a row is very bad.

Well you know my feelings about CJ this draft, although I agree that drafting WRs in a row is very bad.Hey, if he redefines the position and changes the way defenses play for good, I'll eat crow every day for 5 years.

I'm just wondering what all this hype is being based on.

It's just that WR grading has become so piss poor, that you are better off taking the last remaining receiver of a certain group (like Robert Meachem as opposed to CJ) than to take the most hyped guy. History argues that they have an equal chance at success, and one costs you way less.

If we were drafting a QB, I would only hope we would take Quinn over Russell. IMO there is a good chance Russell will be the next Leaf.

If we were drafting a QB, I would only hope we would take Quinn over Russell. IMO there is a good chance Russell will be the next Leaf.The differences between Leaf and Russell is that Russell's college production looks monsterous compared to Leaf. Russell just simply didn't play enough college football to adequately prepare himself for the next level. I think the next Joey Harrington, David Carr, or Rex Grossman would be more accurate comparisions.

Quinn vs. Russell is similar to Shane Battier vs. Kwame Brown. The Wizards could have taken Battier who showed throughout his college career that he was a very good player and had all the tangible and intangbile qualities to be a solid pro player.

But Brown was phenomenal in workouts, absolutely abusing other top prospects include Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry. And his "rawness" made him more appealing to coaches/front office staff who thought he had untapped potential that they could bring out, whereas Battier was as good as he was going to get.

Well, six years later maybe Battier has been nothing more than a solid serviceable player and he is as good as he is going to get. But what he is is pretty good, whereas Brown has to be one of the biggest busts ever.

Another analogy, it's like when some girl wants to date the "bad boy" because she thinks she can change him while the nice guy sits in the corner wondering what the heck just happened here.

I guess what I'm trying to say is scouts/coaches/front office execs etc. sometimes try to force things that aren't there and may never be there largely because of their egos, yet fail to see what's right in front of them. In the immortal words of Gmanc711 sometimes "it is what it is"

Hey, if he redefines the position and changes the way defenses play for good, I'll eat crow every day for 5 years.

I'm just wondering what all this hype is being based on.

It's just that WR grading has become so piss poor, that you are better off taking the last remaining receiver of a certain group (like Robert Meachem as opposed to CJ) than to take the most hyped guy. History argues that they have an equal chance at success, and one costs you way less.

Haha I will need to hold you to that. I dont know about the complete redefinition, but I think he will be very good.

But back to the thread, I think there is something else the experts have against Quinn. They just want the bigger, stronger QB rather the smarter experienced one. I still dont get it.

Unfairly to Quinn, I'm sure a lot of NFL teams are comparing him to the last two highly touted Notre Dame QBs-Ron Powlus and Rick Mirer-both who were complete busts.

Unfairly to Russell, I'm sure a lot of NFL teams are saying "Wow, he's just like Vince Young"

But back to the thread, I think there is something else the experts have against Quinn. They just want the bigger, stronger QB rather the smarter experienced one. I still dont get it.This point is probably worthy of its own thread topic. But since Russell vs. Quinn may be the shining example that ushers in the new era of scouting principles, this may be the best place to make this point.

I'll try to keep this brief. It's not my strongsuit.

Russell vs. Quinn is just the most fitting example of all the problems that are wrong with scouting today. Among them:

1) The gross refusal to learn from past mistakes
2) The overvaluation of skills that do not contribute to winning football OR contribute far less than we are led to believe
3) The TV scouting media is centered around just a few select opinions, and these select few (exception to Kiper) aren't the hardest workers, to say the least.
4) The out-of-control media hype machine and the cutthroat, dangerous nature surrounding the draft.
5) The inability to admit even the possibility that the qualities that created a good football player 40 years ago just maybe might be somewhat obsolete (see: Roy Williams, Dallas Safety)
6) The perception of the draft being a crapshoot and a lack of desire to even attempt to improve scouting techniques to gain a competitive edge.
7) The inexplicable slow nature of incorporating college statistics into the scouting process.
8) The ridiculous emphasis on the combine and the pride that scouts defend the value of the combine with.
9) The ridiculous inability to correctly evaluate NFL talent even when you get to see these guys play every Sunday.
10) The refusal to realize that rookie football players are almost always a liability and the propensity of teams to draft for immediate need, when they should be trying to draft for future need.
11) The propensity to give up on a successful prospect way too early
12) Teams that hold onto a worthless prospect way too long

I'm sure theres a few I forgot, but these inherent biases (and some scouts may avoid Quinn like the plague because they learned to hate ND at a young age...it happens) are causing the draft to become a crapshoot. Either more people will realize stuff like this and there will be a leaguewide upheavel of scouting departments, or a select few teams will fix these principles, and dominate the league while the other teams wallow in their ignorance. With sabremetric football evaluation starting to gain popularity, some teams will get a lot better at avoiding busts in the draft and through FA. The question is, will all teams adhere to this, or just a select few?

These are going to be a very interesting next couple of offseasons.